122 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

Here's an excerpt from a Betawatch post on Massively.com

"Massively considers a game to be in open testing if it has open, public signups and plans for a server wipe before its official launch. Self-described "open beta" MMOs that have soft-launched with functioning real-money cash shops will not be listed."

http://massively.joy...arch-9-15-2013/

Now one, you'll note that Massively covers more than just MMOs.

Two, what I'm pointing out here is that Open Beta like we have here is perceived in a certain way. And perceptions are more important than consensus, in this case.

This is aimed at the people who use the 'It's a BETA' argument incorrectly. And by incorrectly I mean trotting it out in an effort to silence legitimate feedback. It happens and it happens OFTEN on these boards. Lets put an end to that please.

*Bolding last paragraph because apparently people have reading comprehension issues*

Edited by Thirdstar, 16 March 2013 - 09:22 PM.

[Mackman]

I would agree with you, EXCEPT for the fact that PGI openly acknowledges that this game is incomplete and in Beta.

What is your post trying to accomplish? The game is incomplete; It's advertised as a beta; it's constantly undergoing tweaks and awaiting further development; it is, de facto, a Beta, regardless of one website's (or one person's) definition of a Beta.

Any person who logs in and spends money expecting a fully developed game is doing so in willful ignorance of the "Beta" tag right under the title on the website. THEY THEMSELVES CLAIM TO BE A BETA: That means that if you expect it not to be a Beta, based on some external source not related to the publishers in any way, that's completely on you.

EDIT: This is directed against people (not the OP, my apologies) who attack the Beta tag because they feel PGI has somehow tricked them into paying money for an incomplete game.

Edited by Mackman, 16 March 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[Hawkwings]

I can release a ****** terrible game tomorrow that is obviously not complete, and I can call it a beta. Does that make it a beta?

Just because PGI calls this game a beta does not mean that it is.

[valkyrie]

Mackman, on 16 March 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

I would agree with you, EXCEPT for the fact that PGI openly acknowledges that this game is incomplete and in Beta.

What is your post trying to accomplish? The game is incomplete; It's advertised as a beta; it's constantly undergoing tweaks and awaiting further development; it is, de facto, a Beta, regardless of one website's (or one person's) definition of a Beta.

Any person who logs in and spends money expecting a fully developed game is doing so in willful ignorance of the "Beta" tag right under the title on the website. THEY THEMSELVES CLAIM TO BE A BETA: That means that if you expect it not to be a Beta, based on some external source not related to the publishers in any way, that's completely on you.

His post isn't about changing PGI's designation of the game's status.

It's to stop people like you from going "well it's a beta, so clearly anything wrong with this game isn't worth complaining about" when the exact opposite is true.

[saintchuck]

The 'obviously not complete' part does, in fact, make it a beta.

Edit: I see 'It's beta' being used more to calm down the rampant screaming about incomplete and unbalanced mechanics.

Edited by saintchuck, 16 March 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Mackman]

Hawkwings, on 16 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

I can release a ****** terrible game tomorrow that is obviously not complete, and I can call it a beta. Does that make it a beta?

Just because PGI calls this game a beta does not mean that it is.

I'm just going to quote myself from a post I made some time ago, when this came up more frequently:

"The game is advertised as a Beta. That means that it is, by definition, not a finished product. Nobody from PGI has ever pretended that what you're buying is a full game. Not once have I ever seen that claim from a Dev. Did I miss the international law that says, "And when releasing a video game to open beta, if you charge money for it, then it must be absolutely complete and finished"? Did I miss that?

No. Because such a law doesn't exist. And common sense would dictate caution when paying for what is plainly advertised as an unfinished product.

You knew what you were getting into. You knew that you were paying money for a Beta game. You knew that it would be limited in scope for a while, and you knew that it would have issues.

The Devs have explicitly stated all of this. None of it was hidden. You knew it all... and if you didn't, then I'm sorry, but you really shouldn't internet anymore.

BTW: I have no problem with people voicing complaints about how the game is going. But I do have a problem with the absolutely balls-out insane suggestion that, because the Devs dared to give you the opportunity to pay real money, that somehow nullifies the fact that what you are playing is a Beta.

This is not targeted against people who are raising legitimate concerns as Beta testers, in an effort to improve the game. This is targeted at those who act as though PGI somehow deceived them, forced or tricked them into paying to play a F2P not-finished-yet game. My point is that, when the game is labeled "Beta," when the Devs themselves say the game is not finished, you have no right to expect a full game immediately. You get what you paid for, and in this case, you paid for a product that claimed to be an unfinished Beta. Why in the world would you expect to get something else?"

Edited by Mackman, 16 March 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Here's an excerpt from a Betawatch post on Massively.com

"Massively considers a game to be in open testing if it has open, public signups and plans for a server wipe before its official launch. Self-described "open beta" MMOs that have soft-launched with functioning real-money cash shops will not be listed."

http://massively.joy...arch-9-15-2013/

Now one, you'll note that Massively covers more than just MMOs.

Two, what I'm pointing out here is that Open Beta like we have here is perceived in a certain way. And perceptions are more important than consensus, in this case.

This is aimed at the people who use the 'It's a BETA' argument incorrectly. And by incorrectly I mean trotting it out in an effort to silence legitimate feedback. It happens and it happens OFTEN on these boards. Lets put an end to that please.

By that piece of **** definition Marvel Heroes is in open release even though it's in closed beta because it has a cash shop for founders. DoTA 2, Tribes Ascend (admittably months ago), and pretty much every F2P.

Hell, star citizen is now released.

[Mackman]

valkyrie, on 16 March 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

His post isn't about changing PGI's designation of the game's status.

It's to stop people like you from going "well it's a beta, so clearly anything wrong with this game isn't worth complaining about" when the exact opposite is true.

I've never seen "It's a Beta, get over it," in response to a well-reasoned thread saying that such-and-such a feature would be a good addition to the game, or that there is a bug and it should be fixed. I do, however, see it brought up when someone posts in a frothing rage, demanding to know how PGI would dare to release a game without such-and-such a feature, or how utterly ******** the devs must be to have such-and-such a weapon be so unbalanced.

[Soulscour]

Hawkwings, on 16 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

I can release a ****** terrible game tomorrow that is obviously not complete, and I can call it a beta. Does that make it a beta?

Just because PGI calls this game a beta does not mean that it is.

I've played many terrible games. If you want to consider this game to be terrible thats on you but I don't think sticking around for over 300 posts on the forum of a game that you think is bad supports that opinion very well. The game is pretty buggy and weapon balance is a little off. Features are constantly being added every month with fixes so yeah I think its still in beta form. Ive seen some pretty big changes over the last 6 months but I will say that anyone who expects the same amount of polish as a high budget studio like for Battlefield 3, or Halo should get thier heads checked.

[valkyrie]

Mackman, on 16 March 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

I'm just going to quote myself from a post I made some time ago, when this came up more frequently:

"The game is advertised as a Beta. That means that it is, by definition, not a finished product. Nobody from PGI has ever pretended that what you're buying is a full game. Not once have I ever seen that claim from a Dev. Did I miss the international law that says, "And when releasing a video game to open beta, if you charge money for it, then it must be absolutely complete and finished"? Did I miss that?

No. Because such a law doesn't exist. And common sense would dictate caution when paying for what is plainly advertised as an unfinished product.

You knew what you were getting into. You knew that you were paying money for a Beta game. You knew that it would be limited in scope for a while, and you knew that it would have issues.

The Devs have explicitly stated all of this. None of it was hidden. You knew it all... and if you didn't, then I'm sorry, but you really shouldn't internet anymore.

BTW: I have no problem with people voicing complaints about how the game is going. But I do have a problem with the absolutely balls-out insane suggestion that, because the Devs dared to give you the opportunity to pay real money, that somehow nullifies the fact that what you are playing is a Beta.

This is not targeted against people who are raising legitimate concerns as Beta testers, in an effort to improve the game. This is targeted at those who act as though PGI somehow deceived them, forced or tricked them into paying to play a F2P not-finished-yet game. My point is that, when the game is labeled "Beta," when the Devs themselves say the game is not finished, you have no right to expect a full game immediately. You get what you paid for, and in this case, you paid for a product that claimed to be an unfinished Beta. Why in the world would you expect to get something else?"

This is a good post. I haven't paid anything beyond my initial Founder's investment, but I understand other people have already been paying in for more MC. I personally have issues with the fact that PGI is already charging money for an incomplete game, but that doesn't change anything. That's fine, I don't have to spend anything and new players don't either. Optional, I get that.

That said, the fact that some of us already HAVE paid, to me, suggests that we should have more pull and should be listened to when we make demands, rather than have our concerns deflected by the community at large because it's "in beta."

[Mackman]

valkyrie, on 16 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

This is a good post. I haven't paid anything beyond my initial Founder's investment, but I understand other people have already been paying in for more MC. I personally have issues with the fact that PGI is already charging money for an incomplete game, but that doesn't change anything. That's fine, I don't have to spend anything and new players don't either. Optional, I get that.

That said, the fact that some of us already HAVE paid, to me, suggests that we should have more pull and should be listened to when we make demands, rather than have our concerns deflected by the community at large because it's "in beta."

I sympathize with you immensely, and if I ever see a legit suggestion get shot down because "it's in Beta," i'll be right there beside you fighting back. That sort of attitude has no place in a Beta: In fact, the Beta is the place to make suggestions for improvement. It's when people act as though PGI tricked them into paying, that I get upset.

[Xmith]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Here's an excerpt from a Betawatch post on Massively.com

"Massively considers a game to be in open testing if it has open, public signups and plans for a server wipe before its official launch. Self-described "open beta" MMOs that have soft-launched with functioning real-money cash shops will not be listed."

http://massively.joy...arch-9-15-2013/

Now one, you'll note that Massively covers more than just MMOs.

Two, what I'm pointing out here is that Open Beta like we have here is perceived in a certain way. And perceptions are more important than consensus, in this case.

This is aimed at the people who use the 'It's a BETA' argument incorrectly. And by incorrectly I mean trotting it out in an effort to silence legitimate feedback. It happens and it happens OFTEN on these boards. Lets put an end to that please.

So are you saying that it is not in beta?

[Thirdstar]

Mackman, on 16 March 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

BTW: I have no problem with people voicing complaints about how the game is going. But I do have a problem with the absolutely balls-out insane suggestion that, because the Devs dared to give you the opportunity to pay real money, that somehow nullifies the fact that what you are playing is a Beta.

And that's not what I'm saying.

Edited by Thirdstar, 16 March 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[Thuzel]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Here's an excerpt from a Betawatch post on Massively.com

"Massively considers a game to be in open testing if it has open, public signups and plans for a server wipe before its official launch. Self-described "open beta" MMOs that have soft-launched with functioning real-money cash shops will not be listed."

http://massively.joy...arch-9-15-2013/

Now one, you'll note that Massively covers more than just MMOs.

Two, what I'm pointing out here is that Open Beta like we have here is perceived in a certain way. And perceptions are more important than consensus, in this case.

This is aimed at the people who use the 'It's a BETA' argument incorrectly. And by incorrectly I mean trotting it out in an effort to silence legitimate feedback. It happens and it happens OFTEN on these boards. Lets put an end to that please.

"Beta" is effectively irrelevant once the game enters it's primary business mode and starts taking money regularly. Everything else is just nitpicking.

[Mackman]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Yeah this is the kind of guy I'm talking about.

He's saying that if you bought anything in this 'obvious Beta' you've signed away all rights to complain and provide feeback.

Nice rebuttal. Way to put words in my mouth. I said that where?

[Serapth]

Mackman, on 16 March 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

What is your post trying to accomplish? The game is incomplete; It's advertised as a beta; it's constantly undergoing tweaks and awaiting further development; it is, de facto, a Beta, regardless of one website's (or one person's) definition of a Beta.

See... I might agree with you, if the bolded statement was true.

In closed beta it was constantly undergoing tweaks... now **** happens at a snails pace.

I mean, they confirmed SRMs are doing potentially 3x too much damage... but we have to wait 2 patch cycles for a fix? What the fuc..........


I mean, its one or the other. If its in beta... iterate quickly and balance and squash bugs as fast as you can, even if it means breaking the game for a bit. This two week update cycle stuff well... it's hard to defend. Hell, released MMOs update faster than that.

[Thirdstar]

Mackman, on 16 March 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

I sympathize with you immensely, and if I ever see a legit suggestion get shot down because "it's in Beta," i'll be right there beside you fighting back. That sort of attitude has no place in a Beta: In fact, the Beta is the place to make suggestions for improvement. It's when people act as though PGI tricked them into paying, that I get upset.

This is what I'm saying. I don't know which part of the forum you're frequenting, but I've seen plenty of 'It's Beta' in response to good feedback.

[Serapth]

Thuzel, on 16 March 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

"Beta" is effectively irrelevant once the game enters it's primary business mode and starts taking money regularly. Everything else is just nitpicking.

"Beta" prevents it from being reviewed.

Nitpicking or not, that's a big point.

[Thirdstar]

Mackman, on 16 March 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Nice rebuttal. Way to put words in my mouth. I said that where?

Didn't read your second post before making mine, apologies. Note edited post.

[NocturnalBeast]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Here's an excerpt from a Betawatch post on Massively.com

"Massively considers a game to be in open testing if it has open, public signups and plans for a server wipe before its official launch. Self-described "open beta" MMOs that have soft-launched with functioning real-money cash shops will not be listed."

http://massively.joy...arch-9-15-2013/

Now one, you'll note that Massively covers more than just MMOs.

Two, what I'm pointing out here is that Open Beta like we have here is perceived in a certain way. And perceptions are more important than consensus, in this case.

This is aimed at the people who use the 'It's a BETA' argument incorrectly. And by incorrectly I mean trotting it out in an effort to silence legitimate feedback. It happens and it happens OFTEN on these boards. Lets put an end to that please.

PGI can call the game what they want and charge the prices that they want, you do not have to play if you don't want to. Complaining about the status of the game being called "Beta" is not going to help the game become better. This is the new business model for 90% of the games that are coming out now. This "Freemium" business model was mostly adopted after the huge whinefest on the Bioware forums about whether SWTOR is worth the sub. Many people who play games today are not able to do simple math and realize that unlimited content for a small sub fee is much cheaper than buying content in a limited content game, unfortunately they were the most vocal on the internet and now every company is using a "Facebook game" business model. To be fair, PGI has one of the best FTP models out there, as you can play and do very well in this game without spending a dime, your mechs just don't look as cool and it will take you longer to level up your mechs.