25 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Yes, this is another splatcat thread, but it's not able the hate or the love for the splatcat. This is all about explaining the decision to go this route for the sake of mastering the catapults and why this is the preferred method to go over the C4 alternative. Whether you learn anything of worth is anyone's guess, but this is to show everyone why the splatcat is what it is today...

I wrote a post in the battlemechs help section on what Catapult to go for, after acquiring the K2 and C1. The K2 was kinda my original choice to master in the heavies, but I ended up liking the C1 more. So, I didn't really think too much about my option... except that the complaints about the A1 Splatcat made me curious, and I went to find out. Boy, I was in for an interesting ride.

Splatcat build that I ended up with in the end:
11 DHS (1 DHS in engine)
300 STD Engine
7 tons of SRM ammo, 4 tons in legs, 2 tons in arms, 1 ton in CT
2 SRM6
4 SRM4
3 JJs

The ammo is in the CT, because if I get cored directly, I probably deserve to die thru the ammo explosions. It's the first section to consume ammo anyways. I don't put any in the head, because it's too easy to hit a catapult's cockpit/head... The arms have all the weaponry... and although I would lose ammo if I lose them, they have the least likely chance of having an explosion occur because the SRMs (particularly the SRM6) would be able to take the hit.

Had the game properly adhered to the missile restrictions, the classic 3 SRM6s in each arm wouldn't be shot in 1 big volley. This cfg is built to handle fixes to this behavior.

JJs are there for mobility.

Heat is an issue with splatcats. Sure, SRMs don't generate too much heat, but when you boat so many, they do need some attention to heat in engagements.

Artemis is not used because of ECM and for the simple fact that it takes up more space than I'd like.

The positives about the splatcat:
Yes, they kill things quickly. Any mech that is slow and/or light mechs that run in predictable ways will easily get hit. You quickly HAVE to learn how SRMs work. SRM design is actually very usable, compare to other MW titles. Success depends a lot on positioning... and that's where the JJs add to the potential. You also learn a lot about torso twisting... since you want to reduce or at least spread the damage to the arms as evenly as you can. You also learn about sneaking up on other mechs... which is the same tactic all light mechs benefit from in a much slower mech. You also will learn about absorbing damage, like an assault mech. You are literally the focus of the battlefield sometimes. That doesn't make things easy.

The negatives about the splatcat:
It's true. It is the one trick pony. This is unmistakable. However, it's more complicated than that.

Being the center of attention does not go well, since the main focus of your opponents is literally to remove you or your ability to fire back. You get the same kind of attention that Raven 3Ls get, but a little bit less, since you are hard to miss on the battlefield.

You have to rely on other people being distracted. The catapult by design isn't very good at direct confrontations and brawling. Sure you can build a K2 dual AC20 cat, but when you are being focused on, you are very vulnerable. You have to get close to your targets, to improve your overall damage (think LBX, except a lot more lenient). You simply cannot stay put at any given time. Heat starts to become an issue when there are multiple targets within your vicinity. You are much better when you aren't actually the the focal point of any attack.

With most of that out of the way, so why did I choose to go splatcat.. why not go for some equivalent C4 based splatcat or LRM boat of some kind?

Well...

The C4 Catapult is a better LRM boat than the Catapult A1... if only because the C4 has access to TAG. It is essentially a must-have for any LRM designs to effectively counter ECM. Of course, ECM is its own set of issues, but it's important to understand the circumstances that is required for any LRM boat to be effected...

You need a spotter. If you are a solo PUG, you really have to get outside help if you cannot put TAG on your mech. It's just a fact of this game. There are three key issues that are at hand...

1) ECM is your worst enemy, so you need someone that is smart enough to help remove ECM from targets... and at minimum, target them themselves, so you get something to aim at. Not all light mechs have ECM (which is part of the problem), and if they have them, they DON'T ALWAYS USE COUNTER MODE. So, in many ways, you have to be in a premade and/or have expectations that those wielding such power, actually knows how to use it. This is part of a bigger problem...

2) TAG is useless when used by other teammates. It's hard to explain this other than.. for TAG users that don't have LRMs, they don't seem to know how to use it, and/or even use it properly. This is especially worsened by having zero hint on whether a target is spotted by TAG. I dunno... I don't use enough LRMs to feel like I know someone is spotting, or whether they even have the tool to spot them with. I mean, TAG is practically useful to yourself, because you are the one targeting them.

3) The expectation that a teammate uses "R" to target your enemy is... strangely questionable at best. The creation of threads about not using this easy built-in feature amazes me. You can see this happening when specing individuals. Why this continues to happen is beyond me... so the fact that you have to rely on competent teammates is... a sad state of affairs.

Note: NARC is an interesting case.. but unlike MW4 where you are informed it is in use (but the behavior last I checked was buggy in MW4 due in part to the netcode), but you are "kinda" given a hint to where it is being applied.. but it's not good enough (plus ECM negates its existence thus making a pointless option altogether).

So you're asking, why the heck does this matter?

When you use a splatcat, you do depend on others for the purposes of brawling, but that usually takes care of itself when you do the things good brawlers do. When you use an LRM boat, you actually require people to actively help you.. in the equivalence of hand-holding. You cannot expect LRM boats to do anything if they aren't crippled via other means. Good LRM boats know where to reposition themselves and whatnot, but they are significantly more effective when others do their job... but many PUGs don't.

I remember seeing missile rain when I was piloting a 3L or a Cic-3M... massive waves of missiles blew up targets like nothing. If I wasn't there, I bet this wasn't going to happen at the rate it was happening at.

When it comes to a splatcat, depending on others is far more forgiving than when you use an LRM boat...

My personal gripe is with the design of TAG... the dependence on the energy hardpoint.

You might ask "well, the C4 has them, why not use that?"

I've said many times that most missile boats have crappy backup weapons. The C4 is no exception. I could have TAG, but only one other laser... and be useless w/o help. If I use a large laser or two meds, I cannot use TAG, thus gimping my own ability to use LRMs. If I go SRMs on a C4, the A1 is still far and away superior to a 2med/1LL + 2 SRM6 C4. There is no contest. I love eating C4 pilots alive with the A1.

I've seen many A1s and C4s try to have two different types of missiles (or 3 in the case of the A1). I've found that doing this is like being a jack-of-all-trades. You are simply not as effective as you could be. That's also why people boat weapons... you don't want to complicate things by crippling yourself.



My personal solutions to "addressing" this overall issue:
1) Remove TAG as an energy based weapon. Why this takes up an energy slotis beyond me...

or

2) Add an energy slot to the head/CT of the A1 Catapult AND move one of the energy hardpoints to the HEAD of the C4 Catapult. This will accomplish two things:

a) The A1 Catapult can actually fulfill the same role the C4 Catapult can, because it can use TAG. At least now, it can be the LRM boat that it should have been in the first place...

The C4 Catapult can "properly" defend itself. You can put TAG on the head AND still put in a large laser or large pulse laser to defend itself (instead of just one laser). The C1 will still be a better overall mech to have both energy and missiles, and the C4 at least would be considered as a better fire support mech that can defend itself.


For those TL;DR:

ECM and missile in general will get their nerfs... but the A1 over the C4 in the current state of things will continue to be the same. The A1 splatcat is designed to be what it is, a one trick pony that is effective when used with a brain, and countering it ALSO requires a brain. Anyone who's never tried it themselves will never understand that "it's not always that easy to go splat".

In this heavily based team game, the problem with the team when it comes to PUGs is that you literally cannot rely on your teammates to allow you to succeed. With problems regarding ECM balance that make the difficulty tenfold, you may succumb to using the A1 splatcat like I did, because it is far more productive than the C4 alternative that the MWO devs provided to us. Without the splatcat, catapult grinding would be insufferable with the current situation. There is no better "fun" solution to grinding catapults, is serving up QQ to those that simply do not comprehend the problems and failed options of the C4 catapult that simply are inferior to the A1 splatcat alternative.

In sum, DEAL WITH IT UNTIL THEY CHANGE IT. This even includes the future April 2 splash damage nerf.

BTW, I'm done grinding with the splatcat, and I hope never to return to this mech again... unless I want to go splat.

Edit:
Link to the "Fundamental Build":
CPLT-A1

Edited by Deathlike, 17 March 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

have you noticed SRMs on the splatcat have a firing delay?
*click*
...
...
...
WOOSH

[Berserker]

They don't if you open your bay doors with /

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Berserker, on 17 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

They don't if you open your bay doors with /

ah didnt know that, I never use my cat lol

[Deathlike]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

have you noticed SRMs on the splatcat have a firing delay?
*click*
...
...
...
WOOSH

I quickly learned that, and have almost mastered opening teh doors at the beginning of every match.

[Vassago Rain]

[0X2A]

C4 Will destroy an A1 at range. I understand most of the maps are brawling maps so far (A1 shines here), but with the addition of new and obviously larger maps, a c4 equipped with 2 Lrm-15s and 2 Srm 6s and a TAG is the superior build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c2e855b707e0b3

Any player with half a brain cell left in his/her brain will easily be able to kite an A1 long enough to get a few LRM volleys out to gain the edge in a skirmish.

Just saying :/ cheese gets moldy after a while.

Splat cat is balanced... so long as the ECM doesnt change.

[Bogus]

I got an A1 splatcat for the purpose of unlocking elite. Fun times, but very lame and I don't really regret selling it (though it did give me the two most hilarious moments in my MWO career...wish I'd frapsed that).

The problem with C4 is that if you want to do SRMs splatcat is obviously the better way to go, and if you want LRMs a pair of LRM15 are a very efficient delivery system and C1 can back that up with 3-4 medium lasers.

[Deathlike]

Through my grinding of the A1, the C4 was the least of the threats during my play. It's easier to find a more threatening A1 splatcat than a C4. Closing the distance on the C4 is so much easier.

[Vassago Rain]

0X2A, on 17 March 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

C4 Will destroy an A1 at range. I understand most of the maps are brawling maps so far (A1 shines here), but with the addition of new and obviously larger maps, a c4 equipped with 2 Lrm-15s and 2 Srm 6s and a TAG is the superior build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c2e855b707e0b3

Any player with half a brain cell left in his/her brain will easily be able to kite an A1 long enough to get a few LRM volleys out to gain the edge in a skirmish.

Just saying :/ cheese gets moldy after a while.

Splat cat is balanced... so long as the ECM doesnt change.

You're wrong on all accounts. When ranged firepower is strong, A1 has LRMs. We have alpine already, and it turns into an E6 brawl every game, all day long.

Here, have some Tony Hawk's pro A1.

[Sephlock]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

2) TAG is useless when used by other teammates. It's hard to explain this other than.. for TAG users that don't have LRMs, they don't seem to know how to use it, and/or even use it properly. This is especially worsened by having zero hint on whether a target is spotted by TAG. I dunno... I don't use enough LRMs to feel like I know someone is spotting, or whether they even have the tool to spot them with. I mean, TAG is practically useful to yourself, because you are the one targeting them.

Theres a little icon that pops up over the enemy mech...

Quote

3) The expectation that a teammate uses "R" to target your enemy is... strangely questionable at best. The creation of threads about not using this easy built-in feature amazes me. You can see this happening when specing individuals. Why this continues to happen is beyond me... so the fact that you have to rely on competent teammates is... a sad state of affairs.

There was a time during the reign of the OP artemis LRM when EVERYONE targeted. It was GLORIOUS. I still maintain that you should be forced by the system to always have a target at all times, and if an enemy is circling you, causing you to constantly lose lock on him, too freaking bad: just get the module that prevents that.

That would not be necessary if there were less morons in the playerbase, but... yeah...

Quote

Note: NARC is an interesting case.. but unlike MW4 where you are informed it is in use (but the behavior last I checked was buggy in MW4 due in part to the netcode), but you are "kinda" given a hint to where it is being applied.. but it's not good enough (plus ECM negates its existence thus making a pointless option altogether).

Theres an icon indicating that NARC is active on a given mech also... and IIRC the icons are different which SEEMS to indicate that they stack in some undefined manner... but Narc is still terrible, so... yeah.

Quote

I've seen many A1s and C4s try to have two different types of missiles (or 3 in the case of the A1). I've found that doing this is like being a jack-of-all-trades. You are simply not as effective as you could be. That's also why people boat weapons... you don't want to complicate things by crippling yourself.

So naturally you voted for ATM/IATM/MMLs in my other thread, right? RIGHT?

Quote

My personal solutions to "addressing" this overall issue:
1) Remove TAG as an energy based weapon. Why this takes up an energy slotis beyond me...

It would be kinda neat if they made it like AMS (with its own slot type).

Quote

2) Add an energy slot to the head/CT of the A1 Catapult AND move one of the energy hardpoints to the HEAD of the C4 Catapult. This will accomplish two things:

a) The A1 Catapult can actually fulfill the same role the C4 Catapult can, because it can use TAG. At least now, it can be the LRM boat that it should have been in the first place...

The C4 Catapult can "properly" defend itself. You can put TAG on the head AND still put in a large laser or large pulse laser to defend itself (instead of just one laser). The C1 will still be a better overall mech to have both energy and missiles, and the C4 at least would be considered as a better fire support mech that can defend itself.

Good ideas but they won't happen, for reasons that are entirely arbitrary

[Kdogg788]

The op is right though. The best way to balance the variant is to make the SRMs launch one at a time from each arm, so theoretically in pairs if running six, and not one full volley of 36 missiles.

-k

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kdogg788, on 17 March 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

The op is right though. The best way to balance the variant is to make the SRMs launch one at a time from each arm, so theoretically in pairs if running six, and not one full volley of 36 missiles.

-k

way that totally makes sense that those twon lrm 20 racks couldnt simultaneous fire srms like it does with the lrms -.-

[Kdogg788]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 March 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

way that totally makes sense that those twon lrm 20 racks couldnt simultaneous fire srms like it does with the lrms -.-

I'd rather the handle missile hardpoints in terms of launchers and not tubes as in, instead of allowing 20 simultaneous missiles, they allow one launcher at a time to fire. I run a halfsplat and I can tell you that even four Artemis sixes firing at once is devastating and easy to connect with.

-k

[Deathlike]

Sephlock, on 17 March 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Theres a little icon that pops up over the enemy mech...

Yes, I'm aware of it, but that doesn't mean it's always obvious in my current FOV.

Quote

There was a time during the reign of the OP artemis LRM when EVERYONE targeted. It was GLORIOUS. I still maintain that you should be forced by the system to always have a target at all times, and if an enemy is circling you, causing you to constantly lose lock on him, too freaking bad: just get the module that prevents that.

Outside of ECM affecting this, sure. I already have the Advance Target Decay module... and eventually will get Advanced Sensor Range to go with that... BAP is still... meh.

Quote

That would not be necessary if there were less morons in the playerbase, but... yeah...

PGI needs to help address some parts of "Darwinism" in their game.

Quote

Theres an icon indicating that NARC is active on a given mech also... and IIRC the icons are different which SEEMS to indicate that they stack in some undefined manner... but Narc is still terrible, so... yeah.

I've seen it... but rarely. I prefer to pretend it didn't exist and frankly, it's not obvious unless it's in my FOV.

Quote

So naturally you voted for ATM/IATM/MMLs in my other thread, right? RIGHT?

Um? No idea?

Quote

It would be kinda neat if they made it like AMS (with its own slot type).

Fine by me. Better that than people stuffing two TAGs for some crazy reason.

Quote

Good ideas but they won't happen, for reasons that are entirely arbitrary

Of course. I expect no less from PGI.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 March 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

way that totally makes sense that those twon lrm 20 racks couldnt simultaneous fire srms like it does with the lrms -.-

They are just twin LRM15 racks on the A1. LRM20s are for the C4...

[0X2A]

Vassago Rain, on 17 March 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

Stuff

Sorry, I was referring to the splat-cat. It will crumble to an lrm boat when closing the 730m required to fire on Alpine. Unless of course It can magically swap load outs. When an enemy ECM is present, any other A1 loadout becomes largely ineffective as it cannot mount a TAG.

Edited by 0X2A, 17 March 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[Deathlike]

0X2A, on 17 March 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

[/size]
Sorry, I was referring to the splat-cat. It will crumble to an lrm boat when closing the 730m required to fire on Alpine. Unless of course It can magically swap load outs. When an enemy ECM is present, any other A1 loadout becomes largely ineffective as it cannot mount a TAG.

The irony is.. if you play a splatcat like you would a cautious light mech, in fear of the 3L, then you can almost eliminate issues that involve other mechs outranging you. Then it becomes like a classic brawl... exactly what it excels in....

[0X2A]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

The irony is.. if you play a splatcat like you would a cautious light mech, in fear of the 3L, then you can almost eliminate issues that involve other mechs outranging you. Then it becomes like a classic brawl... exactly what it excels in....

It's a game of who selects the best tactics. I try my hardest to leave enough space between me and where I think a brawler will be hiding, although surprises happen.

[MischiefSC]

I kill A1s in my C4 all the time.

Lower heat. Better range.

1ERLL, 4xSRM6s.

Most importantly?

The lack of the dedicated hate-train that is perpetually trying to run the A1 over. I get ignored *all the time*. A shot in the back of 4xSRM6 and the ERLL kills all mediums in one shot. Heavies in 2, assaults in 3.

I love my C4. It works well for me, it's flexible on every map. The A1 is just good for 1 thing only and that just... bores me.

[SirLANsalot]

C4 wins in both configs over the A1. Not because of the alpha, being only 2 less SRM's, but with the fact that the C4, running with 4 SRM6 and 2 MPL. Will be able to heatshot/CT core out and kill the A1 faster.


Something is to be said about directed firing mixed with shotgun.....sounds like my CTF-3D (AC20/LBX-10).