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Machine Gun Mechanics - Stream Fire?


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#1 Hakai

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:16 AM

Been reading a bit about arguments for and against MG direct damage buffs, but I'm starting to see maybe we're looking at the problem all wrong. Why don't we get back to the mechanics of the MG rather than if the current implementation is right or not.

As much as I love the divine sound of an un-ending stream of metallic death (or what it really sounds like but doesn't effectively work as), why not break down the pros and cons of the MG and what it's purpose would be in the game we currently play?


Currently damage from the MG is determined by each connecting projectile (at least that's the way i've been reading it and maybe it's different...correct me if i'm incorrect) in which each projectile will add/stack up to a full hit of damage over time.

This creates the unfortunate scenario of needing to focus an almost non-stop STREAM of projectiles to a specific location in order to do any damage...(in a fast paced game in which people can twist their torsos as a method of shielding, that's kind of unfortunate especially when considering the implications of the short range of the weapon).

The stream of bullets makes me think of a machine gun like a really awesome sounding, but VERY ineffective laser. I say, treat machine gun projectiles more like missles.

More specifically, Missles currently are tracked by individual missle (at least that's how i've been seeing it...again correct if i'm wrong), with each salvo containing anywhere from 2-6 or 5-20 missles. (for code i'd almost say they're tracking LRMs in clusters, and SRMs individually as projectiles as it would be the most efficient method of tracking damage without requiring individual tracking of 20 brand new objects each time someone launches an LRM 20)

Machine guns are an unending stream of projectiles, each which has to stack up to a full point of damage (I consider this unfavorable to the mechanics of the game we're playing and the reality of the state of the game as it stands right now).

My projected solution is to, instead, set up the MG to fire in an MG specific version of a "salvo" by firing a long burst of projectiles on the press of firing stud/button/click (which can roughly equal the firing period of any other ballistic weapon in comparison)


Effectively the MG would work like an SRM/LRM launcher where the target has to fire then direct their projectile to the target, but with the added bonus of being able to redirect or sweep their stream to where they would want to.
Each projectile or group of projectiles would still need to connect with the target to add up to full damage, but if ALL projectiles hit their mark you get 2 damage in the particular location (or 1 damage and 1 damage if in 2 locations, but ineffective if spread out among more for damage calculation).

Retain the current critical adjustments to keep the bonus functionality of disabling items, and now you have a bonus to doing damage, AND being able to direct critical hits when you'd like to aim for them. (if it turns out to be overpowered, scale it down or take it out again)

The original thought came to me when I was testing an LRM/SRM launcher in the NARC slot on a RAVEN. Since the NARC contained a single missle tube, each LRM/SRM salvo would actually launch one at a time, effectively allowing me to pinpoint where I wanted each missle to go (but was ultimately ineffective against AMS if used with LRMs)

Effectively each "burst" would be a stream of a certain number of projectiles equaling up to 2 damage (+ or minus a few for a few stray shots here or there...so, in an off-base example, if you need 20 projectiles to hit for a full 2 points of damage, have the burst be 30 projectiles with no bonus PAST 2 damage if more than the original 20 connect).
Each round being fired should be very fast to hit their target (we're only 90 meters from the target, no point in the projectiles being slow to get there at such a "short" range) and they should be at a rapid sticcato rate to ensure we can guide and lead the target adequately once the burst has been initiated.
Note: Explaination of why the the burst streams of fire are necessary? Sole purpose of keeping the barrels of the Machine Gun from melting (argument being if it is a single barrel, fully auto system OR a rotary based system, you still need to keep those suckers from melting by swapping out, cooling, or waiting long enough to keep the barrels operational for the maximum amount of time) we want the MG fire to be satisfying in sound and operation, but controllable for effectiveness.

The end result? A directable and controllable stream of bullets which could add up to a full 2 damage with less time being needed to do so, OR/AND act as an effective crit seeker to the accurate mech jockey.

Mechs with +2 ballistic slots would now have an effective stream of directable damage to do, and it would also make it so you would no longer have to HOLD DOWN the firing control to get the rounds to your target (so you can focus on your aiming, rather than if you're holding down the button long enough to be (in)effective.


Our current system pros and cons
Pros:
No heat (which needed to be dissipated via the battlemech's internal cooling system)
Ballistic weapon (fits in ballistic slots)
Light weight (.5 tons, nearest in weight is 5 tons for the AC2...kind of a big gap there)
High amounts of ammunition (I think everyone forgot the additional bonus of having an MG was 200 "shots/bursts" per ton.)
Linkable (meaning more than one MG could use a central bin if necessary...at least by the rules I remember playing).

Cons:
High risk of ammo explosion (tabletop was supposed to be 200x2 = 400 points of damage to a full ammunition bin...ouch).
Ammunition costs additional weight
Short Range (less than 90m for optimal)
Low Damage versus other weapons of the same range


I have probably left out other pros and cons but I'll stick with this list for now.
Our current issue with MGs is they're considered "useless" because of their low damage output compared to other weapons.
The bonus to critical damage has, very arguably, increased their effectiveness (as the thread has shown)

Considering there are many more effective weapons platforms to use, but very few options for lighter/medium mechs to mount if there is a dedicated ballistics slot, we need a much more effective method of determining damage from MGs.
I would like to put forward the thought of re-adjusting HOW we consider damage from MGs, not necessarily if we should be reconsidering damage from MGs.
The objective is to at minimum gain the effectiveness of a small laser, but still in keeping with balance to ensure they won't be the focus of exploitation without limitation which would destroy the environment of the game.


TL:DR;
1. Make MGs fire in bursts/streams to each button press with a VERY short cooldown (but enough to cycle the weapon with each burst being about the cycling of other ballistic weapons)
2. The stream can be directable once started (as it is now), so you can redirect or sweep your stream of fire to the target as you see fit
3. A certain number of bullets equal a full 2 damage. Make each burst fire slightly more, so if you miss a few projectiles you'll still hit for 2 damage (but not a large amount, maybe 5% someone do the math for me)
4. Keep the Critical bonus (so sweeping with MGs is still valid toward an unarmored target, and will make +2MG mechs the bane of any damaged mech, but with the thought of turning it down if it's TOO powerful)
5. Try to keep the machine gun feeling like it does now (freaking AWESOME sound), just effective.

Edited by Hakai, 18 March 2013 - 08:19 AM.


#2 Vassago Rain

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:19 AM

Holy tl;dr, Threadman!

#3 LordDante

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:21 AM

Posted Image

#4 Sidekick

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

Nice idea.

#5 GoManGo

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:30 AM

Machine Guns still need to DIE they suck hahahaha now the RAC2 and RAC5 they kick asssss I was playing those guns with my new copy of MW4 Mercenaries I bought on eBay much better game than MWO and its 10 years old. Fill this baby up with RAC5 and you PWN all MWO. Posted Image

Edited by GoManGo, 18 March 2013 - 08:31 AM.


#6 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostGoManGo, on 18 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Machine Guns still need to DIE they suck hahahaha now the RAC2 and RAC5 they kick asssss I was playing those guns with my new copy of MW4 Mercenaries I bought on eBay much better game than MWO and its 10 years old. Fill this baby up with RAC5 and you PWN all MWO.



Eh. Doesn't stand a chance against my Dual 1000mm Railgun I

It is, however, about as relevant.

#7 AnnoyingCat

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

need more daka

#8 General Taskeen

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

Or just treat it like a mini autocannon, as I've suggested to PGI countless times. Mech Warrior 3 did the same thing. It did more more up front damage (.8) and had a small cool down which made it fire fast enough to be Dakka-Tastic more than an AC/2.

The way they have programmed to be a stream of bullets is exactly why it is gimped, it is hard to balance around. Same problem with the Flamer.

Edited by General Taskeen, 18 March 2013 - 08:50 AM.


#9 Hakai

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:54 AM

View PostAnnoyingCat, on 18 March 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

need more daka

i'm in agreement...but I think it'd be worth researching.

#10 stjobe

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:01 AM

OP, that seems like an overly complex solution to a problem that can just as easily be solved by simply buffing the MG's projectile damage.

My personal stance on the issue (as I've stated just about everywhere) is to just triple the projectile damage. Bam, instant viable low-weight non-overpowered light ballistic option. No need for any crit buffs or any other silliness, just plain old damage.

#11 Pyrrho

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:09 AM

I don't get why just lifting your finger off of the fire button of your MG weapon group is less preferred than adding in a cool-down driven burst fire mode.

#12 Sleepy Head

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:16 AM

View PostGoManGo, on 18 March 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Machine Guns still need to DIE they suck hahahaha now the RAC2 and RAC5 they kick asssss I was playing those guns with my new copy of MW4 Mercenaries I bought on eBay much better game than MWO and its 10 years old. Fill this baby up with RAC5 and you PWN all MWO. Posted Image


I love the IRAC :)

#13 Hakai

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostPyrrho, on 18 March 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

I don't get why just lifting your finger off of the fire button of your MG weapon group is less preferred than adding in a cool-down driven burst fire mode.


The real point of the burst fire mode is to make it so the damage output can be easier to manage (versus just a non-ending stream of damage calculations, it's now going to be a burst of damage calculations...should make it easier to track hits and effective area as well as allow the pilot to focus more on aiming the weapon than trying to maneuver and keep the crosshair on the target). The current method of just aiming your stream of bullets to a location is not a difficult feat, but it is a feat one that makes an MG less favorable than most other weapons which are basically fire-and-forget (lasers are even managed in a "burst" method in a way, so I guess it wouldn't be THAT far off from what a laser is doing for targeting, but at least we can have full points of damage versus just fractions of damage which might or might not be calculated as part of the total)

View Poststjobe, on 18 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

OP, that seems like an overly complex solution to a problem that can just as easily be solved by simply buffing the MG's projectile damage.

My personal stance on the issue (as I've stated just about everywhere) is to just triple the projectile damage. Bam, instant viable low-weight non-overpowered light ballistic option. No need for any crit buffs or any other silliness, just plain old damage.


I might disagree (but i'd have to understand what you're saying fully first).
If you were to triple the current damage, what would it end up being per second of sustained fire, per MG?

If you were to stack up 4 MGs how much would it be in a focused area?

#14 Pyrrho

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:57 PM

View PostHakai, on 18 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

The real point of the burst fire mode is to make it so the damage output can be easier to manage (versus just a non-ending stream of damage calculations, it's now going to be a burst of damage calculations...should make it easier to track hits and effective area as well as allow the pilot to focus more on aiming the weapon than trying to maneuver and keep the crosshair on the target).


But the stream of damage isn't non-ending. It ends when I stop firing (and exactly when I stop firing). In fact, if there is burst fire, there is more of a chance that I am going to spray off target since, when I stop firing (read: release the fire button), the bullets will still be streaming! Do you see my confusion? Perhaps there is something to your idea I have yet to grasp.

#15 Esplodin

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

View PostHakai, on 18 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

The current method of just aiming your stream of bullets to a location is not a difficult feat, but it is a feat one that makes an MG less favorable than most other weapons which are basically fire-and-forget


That is the one thing I think the dev team got very right. It FEELS, SOUNDS, and ACTS like a mech sized machine gun with the constant spray. If you lose that, it becomes an AC2 with bo11ocks range. Time on target is a crucial metric for a light, and the complete reason you could buff it to 2-3 dps and have it NOT be overpowered.

#16 Deamhan

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:26 PM

Good suggestion, although I see a MG burst being closer to kin to a laser shot than a missile salvo.

See the problem is that there is too big of a gap between the AC2 and the MG.

The AC2 only takes up one slot but it eats up 6 tons. So you'll use up your tonnage and have plenty of crit space unused.

I think that what people are looking for is something to fill that gap.

What we need is something that we can throw on to use up ballistic hard points that doesn't eat up so much tonnage while at the same time doesn't become a waste of space and tonnage itself that could've been better used by adding another heat sink or adding more ammo to the ammo based weapons that actually do damage.

There are a multiple of routes to follow...

1. Make MGs ammo-less. One of the major reason why MG are not worth taking is because it's not just the MG you have to consider. You must take a minimum of one ton worth of ammo so you have at a minimum is 1.5 tons and two slots used up for something that can only be used on armorless targets for the purpose of having a better chance at destroying internals. Remember that a lucky shot with any other weapon can also destroy an internal as soon as the armor is gone and will deliver actual dmg to the mech being hit. Also it is possible to simply apply damage to a side torso and completely destroy both the side torso AND arm and all the weapons on both, in less time it would take you to strip the arm and side torso and destroy the internals with MGs. Also, if they run an XL you will simply kill them.

If they didn't take up that extra ton and crit space and you simply had to free up .5 tons to make use of the hardpoint, then as a "shot of opportunity" weapon, it would be worth taking.


2. Reduce the crit chance do be on par or even less than that of other weapons. Why? Because otherwise it would be OP combined with the next part.

Next, allow MGs to simply ignore armor and start applying dmg to the structure from the start. This means that they have a chance of damaging internals with the armor still in place.


3. Reword MGs to be the "small laser" version of ballistics. Up the tonnage to 1 ton. Have it fire in 1 second bursts doing 2 dmg per burst. At the current rate of fire that would be 10 round bursts and would be .2 dmg per round. It would generate .5 heat.

If you put a .5 second cycle timer between burst then what you end up with is 2 dmg ever 1.5 second for a dps of 1 1/3. It could even be like an Ultra allowing you to do another burst before the .5 seconds but run the risk of jamming. Allowing you, if you are lucking, to do a maximum of 2 dps.

Possibly roll back the crit chance to pre patch to compensate for the increase to damage output.

#17 Hakai

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostPyrrho, on 18 March 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:


But the stream of damage isn't non-ending. It ends when I stop firing (and exactly when I stop firing). In fact, if there is burst fire, there is more of a chance that I am going to spray off target since, when I stop firing (read: release the fire button), the bullets will still be streaming! Do you see my confusion? Perhaps there is something to your idea I have yet to grasp.


What I mean right now, is that in order to do the damage, you have to basically have a non-ending, long stream of projectiles, each of which does a fraction of a point of damage.

Problem is, what happens when the projectiles don't hit a spot which has already lost a fraction? does it remain a partial fraction? does it round down? Does it just disappear if the spot isn't hit after long enough of a time?

I'm more worried about the fact that one laser, one missle salvo, one autocannon/gauss rifle round can be fired in the same amount of time it takes an MG to do a fraction of their damage. The point is to try to make MG's viable by allowing them to fire off at LEAST 2 points of damage per MG in the same amount of time it takes any of the OTHER weapons systems to do their own respective damage points. some people say buff the damage, I say fine...but is it really a problem of just damage? or is it also a problem with how the damage is being calculated, or how the machine gun currently works?

View PostDeamhan, on 18 March 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Good suggestion, although I see a MG burst being closer to kin to a laser shot than a missile salvo.



After reading some other responses i'm starting to realize the same thing.

#18 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:56 PM

View PostHakai, on 18 March 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:


What I mean right now, is that in order to do the damage, you have to basically have a non-ending, long stream of projectiles, each of which does a fraction of a point of damage.

Problem is, what happens when the projectiles don't hit a spot which has already lost a fraction? does it remain a partial fraction? does it round down? Does it just disappear if the spot isn't hit after long enough of a time?

Fractional damage is actually normal for this game. Missiles all do fractional damage. Beam weapons all do fractional damage (their dmg is divided into "ticks" the same way MG dmg is). All energy and ballistic weapons do fractional damage outside of their normal range profile. Considering all that, and that it's no big deal for a computer to track a couple decimal places, and I'd imagine fractional damage stays right where you put it.

#19 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 18 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Or just treat it like a mini autocannon, as I've suggested to PGI countless times. Mech Warrior 3 did the same thing. It did more more up front damage (.8) and had a small cool down which made it fire fast enough to be Dakka-Tastic more than an AC/2.

The way they have programmed to be a stream of bullets is exactly why it is gimped, it is hard to balance around. Same problem with the Flamer.

This would seem like the best solution to me.

#20 El Penguin

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:18 PM

Why change the stream of bullets? Why not do the math and just have it so holding down the stream of fire = same damage rate as a ac/2? then balance it from there. If we keep the stream of bullets it would make it a unique weapon compared to the others instead of making another "laser-like" weapon that uses ammo and has bullet travel time.





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