443 replies to this topic

[Phalanx100bc]

Says Dragons suck.....






Only pilots DDC's or Splatcats

[Orzorn]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 March 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

There are two solutions to this:

1) Fix game balance and match-making, so you don't need to get into the conflict between min/maxed optimums and the mediocre or weak.
2) Fix human behaviour.

What are you going to do?

I think when community warfare comes into the game, those "harder contracts" they talked about forever ago could involve varying levels of tonnage restrictions. This would give uses to normally underused mechs, sure, as slot fillers, but they could still shine in those roles, considering that some mechs were literally made to be cheap and effective low tonnage units.

But that is just one of the many (And possible simultaneous) things they could do to alleviate tonnage issues in this game.

[Pygar]

Personally, I like the Dragon- in fact, it's the only chassis I have mastered... and have even sandbagged tons of XP on past mastery because I don't really like the other options I have at this time. (JagerMech and Orion will more than likely finally change this)

The real problems for Dragon is that it doesn't really outgun mediums like Hunchback or Centurion (which are bound to be more agile as true mediums), and it feels under gunned compared to other heavies because it's weapons mounts are pretty inflexible. (I run almost the exact same loadout on every frame, and it takes a lot of "pimping" to get the loadouts to be even that good)

I do not have any suggestions on how to make the Dragon better- it was always kind of "meh" or "bleh" compared to other mechs of similar tonnage...I think I like flying mine so much just because I know it's an "underdog". (And it does serve me well in many battles- I wouldn't exactly call it "terrible"...but I do get frustrated with Dragon sometimes too.)

[Vassago Rain]

Serapth, on 18 March 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with the Dragon though, and everything to do with the game not weight matching.

This is the ultimate stupid factor of MWO... without BV or equivalent, the Atlas *IS* the superior mech on the battlefield, because it's supposed to be!

Mediums exist because they are cheaper than heavies. Heavies exist because they are cheaper than Assaults. LIghts have their special niche ( speed ), but even then, a lot of it came down to cost.

This game has none of that, and until it does, balance is going to be ... well, unbalaned.

But piloting my D-DC 24/7 is boring as ****, so I pilot "less optimal" builds.

I'm a dreadnought now.

[Orzorn]

Trauglodyte, on 18 March 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Speed is all fine and good. But, there comes a time when you'll either be cornered and/or you'll be at a point where you need to put one game/life defining Alpha on someone. In both those cases, that extra speed gets you nothing and the lack of punch saves nobody. I take no pleasure in writing it but speed is only good if you've got all the room in the world to meneuver and does not, at any point, out balance punch. If you want to roll fast, you run a Light or a Cicada. If you want to impact the group, you roll in something that boats (ugh, I hate it) or something that has a weapons platform where all weapons compliment each other.

Very true.

Personally, the closest thing I've found to a competitive Dragon build is the 2 PPC, 1 Gauss build, which is obviously identicle to the Cataphract build, and therefore rather pointless due to the Cataphract's comparable (I believe its only a few kp/h slower) speed as well as jump jets.

The only other thing to make the Dragon different enough is to put an XL 360 in it, but what currently can be done with that speed? Nothing, really. Until we get large enough maps that you need a 60 ton mech with 4mlas and an AC/10 (or a UAC/5 with an SRM 6) streaking across the landscape to do some undefined task, the cataphract or catapult will fill the Dragon's roll with greater power and variety in build opportunities.

Basically, the Dragon has a role. Its just one that no one needs filled right now. Its also, unforunately, a very specific role. We may never see it need filling, at least with the current Dragon stats, weapon stats, and engine mechanics. If they altered engine mechanics so that faster mechs tended to stay much faster than slower mechs, then the Dragon might always be faster, rather than only if you push it to its limits (whereas the Cataphract and Catapult are pretty much standard 80+ kp/h these days). Letting the Dragon have a higher torso twist such that it could fire directly, or almost directly, behind itself would also let it use that speed to its advantage (I'm also of the opinion the Catapult probably never should have gotten as high of a torso twist as it did). The missile being reduced in power (we're already seeing that with the splash damage removal) will also help hurt the Catapult somewhat.

Regardless, no point in pinning hopes on what can be. The current state of the game does not call for Dragons in 8 man competitive, except for in very specific tonnage restricted scenarios, and even then Dragons can be avoided through careful picking of mechs.

[Roughneck45]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

I'm a dreadnought now.

I don't think they would give you the honor.

Maybe a servo skull

[Vassago Rain]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

I don't think they would give you the honor.

Maybe a servo skull

They'd give me the honor for my stubborn refusal to do what people tell me to, no matter the authority. Venerable dread, first company, right upon inception.

1000 purity seals for knowing absolutely no fear in the face of any enemy. And I never sleep, so that's a clear bonus.

[KharnZor]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

They'd give me the honor for my stubborn refusal to do what people tell me to, no matter the authority. Venerable dread, first company, right upon inception.

1000 purity seals for knowing absolutely no fear in the face of any enemy. And I never sleep, so that's a clear bonus.

lol you'd never make it past scout

Edited by KharnZor, 18 March 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[John MatriX82]

I use Dragons in competitive, treating them as bigger and faster or equally faster mediums.. but the trouble is that boomcats, srmpults or jumpy 3Ds are more useful/powerful than a 60 tonner with lower armor, no JJ capability and so on.

It's a good mech in my books, but you can bring far more firepower and armor with the other mechs.

[Orzorn]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

They'd give me the honor for my stubborn refusal to do what people tell me to, no matter the authority. Venerable dread, first company, right upon inception.

1000 purity seals for knowing absolutely no fear in the face of any enemy. And I never sleep, so that's a clear bonus.

"Suffer not the Dragon, for it is impure." would be your battle cry, surely.

[Goldmember]

What sets dragon apart from mechs of similar weight is speed. It should be used as a speedboat, since you cannot make it a splatboat or laserboat. It is not tough enough to survive brawling, so instead it should be using its speed to always stay far away from the enemy and harass them with long range weapons. What it needs to be more effective is

• Larger maps where flanking is possible
  
• Bring collisions back. A heavy running down lights and medium at 105 km/h would be feared.

[xDeityx]

Trauglodyte, on 18 March 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Speed is all fine and good. But, there comes a time when you'll either be cornered and/or you'll be at a point where you need to put one game/life defining Alpha on someone. In both those cases, that extra speed gets you nothing and the lack of punch saves nobody. I take no pleasure in writing it but speed is only good if you've got all the room in the world to meneuver and does not, at any point, out balance punch. If you want to roll fast, you run a Light or a Cicada. If you want to impact the group, you roll in something that boats (ugh, I hate it) or something that has a weapons platform where all weapons compliment each other.

Just playing Devil's Advocate - the speed could be the difference between being in position to get that alpha off and being 500m away or on the other side of the hill.

[Orzorn]

Goldmember, on 18 March 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

What sets dragon apart from mechs of similar weight is speed. It should be used as a speedboat, since you cannot make it a splatboat or laserboat. It is not tough enough to survive brawling, so instead it should be using its speed to always stay far away from the enemy and harass them with long range weapons. What it needs to be more effective is

• Larger maps where flanking is possible
  
• Bring collisions back. A heavy running down lights and medium at 105 km/h would be feared.

Yes, I think the Dragon has the right ingredients to be competitive, at least in a niche way, but they aren't yet useful or can't compete with certain broken game aspects.

The Dragon is good, but needs some tweaks, as well as some time for other things to get fixed or nerfed, as well as more map variety. Then it may get the chance to have an actual concrete use, even if it is niche. The Dragon has alwas been niche anyways, considering that a 60 ton mech that runs 80 kp/h stock is quite an ugly duckling.

[Reani Che]

U don't like Dragon? U don't know, how 2 use it!

[Orzorn]

[Redacted]

Edited by Egomane, 18 March 2013 - 04:09 PM.
Removed quote

[Incredible Slug]

It's fine for 1-man pugging but probably not much else. I usually get 350-650 damage with a few rare games getting near to 1000. My stats page shows a KDR of 3 for my 1C. I'm not sure it'd be useful in 8v8s though to be honest, I seem to get hit in the side torso pretty easily and expereicned players destroy xl engine reliant mechs so damned fast by taking the side torso out.

Here is an example of a Dragon not being useless in public:

Edited by Incredible Slug, 18 March 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Zen Hachetaki]

I will start off by stating I enjoy the challenge of my Dragons - that being said I only PuG right now and have not been involved in anything competitve as I simply do not have the time to dedicate to getting involved seriously. I mostly enjoy the bigger maps for movement where I can go find a spot, use my long range arm mounted weapons and get the heck out to another firing position. When the lights come buzzing I lead them back to my team mates instead of succumbing to the temptation to duel. My motto in the Dragon is "No Fair Fights".

Use the speed for something, anything, other than circle strafing the same target. We all mount XL engine of at least 300 (my 5N is a 350), USE it! Don't be hit! The super large CT is the main issue, complete hit magnet. Otherwise some really nice things like:
* The LT energy hardpoint - AMAZING sniper tool - VERY high and you can barely crest a hill and shoot over it with return fire having no chance (other than LRMs)
* Arms weapons on BOTH sides, I can poke around cover pop, pop, and back in quickly
* Enough armor to outlast anything faster than you, enough speed to get away from anything else (remember - no fair fights)

I find I can get where I want to be before most others, and still pack a punch. My 5N I found to be surprisingly useful against the dreaded 3L, 2 ER PPC in arm means I can track them really well and drop their ECM long enough for my SSRM to start hitting. I have 3 MGs on consistent fire which makes the 3L get outta dodge as they see there damage screens flashing like crazy (and I usually have opened a hole or 2 with thePPCs) and I have killed far more than have killed me. My problem is when we get down to the last few mechs and I get a duel mentality instead of sticking to hit and cover tactics. They will ALWAYS core the CT if you stay in view too long.

Bottom line is in a campaign setting on a planet - every ounce of speed and responsiveness will make a large difference - like in Alpine, when you are basically in range the whole game it is a different story where Dragons have a harder time shining. BTW, I have no issue hitting with my arms mounted ballistics? I have very low ping so that may be it.

[Serapth]

Orzorn, on 18 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Very true.

Personally, the closest thing I've found to a competitive Dragon build is the 2 PPC, 1 Gauss build, which is obviously identicle to the Cataphract build, and therefore rather pointless due to the Cataphract's comparable (I believe its only a few kp/h slower) speed as well as jump jets.

The only other thing to make the Dragon different enough is to put an XL 360 in it, but what currently can be done with that speed? Nothing, really. Until we get large enough maps that you need a 60 ton mech with 4mlas and an AC/10 (or a UAC/5 with an SRM 6) streaking across the landscape to do some undefined task, the cataphract or catapult will fill the Dragon's roll with greater power and variety in build opportunities.

When grinding cbills, I play either Ilya or Flame for the cbill boost ( as my founders is the HBK-4g, which IS the worse mech in the game that doesn't rhyme with um..... prider. ) and I run a 350xl Flame with 4xLL, 2xLL/2xELL (since Alpine) or 4xML + gauss, all with max armor and all three builds work quite well. You just have to know not to face hump and to run away when the situation isn't ideal. At 103km/h, it can outrun anything that can hurt it, and can easily kill anything that can catch it, even 3ls now that they are hittable. As a pure pug, I average over 300 damage with it, used to be over 400 until I switched to gauss ( lower damage, more kills ). Keep in mind, that includes 0 damage cap races, disconnects and all the other joys that come with playing this game. I coincidentally average 370 damage in my Ilya at this point.

Where it all falls on its face is when we factor in the D-DC... where I average 533 damage. But then, I should, and a Dragon shouldn't be expected to do the same damage as an Atlas, like it currently is.

[Orzorn]

Reani Che, on 18 March 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

U don't like Dragon? U don't know, how 2 use it!

I've mastered all but the Fang (because I don't own it) and have played Dragons since they released in closed beta. I know all too well how to play them, and therein lies the problem. If you know how to play them as well as how all other mechs play and work, you can see that the Dragon just has no place in the current metagame. Its a shame, I know, the Dragon is easily my most favorite mech, and I guarantee you the day it has a position in 8 man competitive I will return to it, but right now is just not the time. The Dragon needs tweaks, weapon tweaks will reduce the power of other mechs, bigger maps will give the Dragon a better reason to be around, and better game modes will give the Dragon a use for its speed. There was a time when the Dragon absolutely had a use, because it was the fastest heavy and still had a good loudout (for the time), but with engine tweaking, weapon imbalance, and map sizes being as they are, the Dragon just faded away.

I sincerely hope we see balances that let more mechs (not just the Dragon) become competitive again. Vassago should know what I'm saying, considering his suggestions about mech specific capabilities in his other thread.

[CH103]

As in the trailer for the Founders Jenner when you see a pack of Dragons coming you don't run you die.
The combination of 2 or more dragons working together makes up for their near uselessness in smaller maps for example if two dragon pilots go round two sides of one enemy your foe is gonna have to choose one to shoot and may not be ain a good position to defend themselves. Now I am not saying the mech is bad at soloing but it is how you play them. Unfortunately for me pre-ELO I was almost always the fastest mech on my team and had to act as some sort of scout but that is not where the mech shine as other people have said it's best use is flanking