443 replies to this topic

[Allister Rathe]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...40e61faf6e05442

Here's the stock 4SP, aka the camel. It does everything you claim your dragon does, except better. It doesn't require a 350 XL, either, and doesn't have a big nose to fill with missiles.

Like I said dude, you're entitled to your opinion. I love to pilot my Flame precisely because of its versatility. We're discussing the Dragon and its viability, but rather than try and address some of the points that I made in my post you pop out a different 'Mech and claim "this does it all but better" without trying to validate that opinion with reasoning.

I'm not looking to get into an argument about "this 'Mech is better than that 'Mech", but rather trying to discuss the Dragon and its state in the game. If you can contribute to that, by all means do so, but don't just slap up a loadout and make the broad statement that "this does it better" without trying to back it up, because that does nothing in terms of the discussion beyond being dismissive.

Edited by Allister Rathe, 18 March 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[Elizander]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

89.3 KPH with a 300XL and speed tweak with a 50 DMG alpha is nothing to sneeze at.

If i want more speed, ill up the engine, go around 105 kph, and still have a gauss rifle and 4xMlas.

Its not light mech fast, or souped up medium fast, but it can get a higher speed with sufficient firepower than most other mechs when built properly.

Hunchbacks and Centurions can do the same thing on Standard Engines. Their Alphas are actually a bit higher and they move faster. I like Dragons, but that's not a very compelling argument in their favor.

I like the arm-mounted weapons on a Dragon, but for most people, that does not make up for the large center torso. It's fine with me though.

[Josef Nader]

Bad hardpoint spread cripples the dragon. It's missile hardpoint is in it's nose, limiting it to a single LRM 10/SRM6. The energy weapons are spread across torso/arms, leading to really weird convergence issues. It packs tons of ballistic hardpoints into a single arm, making it impossible to make use of them, especially given the relatively light tonnage of the mech. Plus, despite being the "fast" member of the heavy mechs, it isn't significantly faster than any of them and it's less maneuverable than the Catapult. It also can't pack very much burst firepower, which is what the meta of the game seems to be rotating around now. Everyone likes their "push button, 'splode mech" builds, which the Dragon just can't do.

I don't consider a big CT to be a problem, 'cause I challenge you to find me a mech that doesn't have a big, exposed CT (and no, the Raven doesn't count).

Long story short, it's in that really weird place between medium and heavy mechs where it doesn't pack enough firepower to be a strong heavy, and it has to trade off firepower to get as fast as a good medium. It's just a goofy mech all around.

[DaZur]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 March 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

No. Do not try to associate this with some silly anti-boating crusade. The Dragon mixes Ballistic and Energy hardpoints, with an occasional splash of missile. The Cataphract mixes the exact same primary hardpoint types and does fine.

Um... I'm stating a point of contention. I'm not a anti-boat zealot nor am I crusading anything... I in fact am of the boat = canon mindset camp.

You might want to holster your pistols and check fire there buckaroo...

Gonna hurt yourself son!

Edited by DaZur, 18 March 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Sayyid]

I like the Dragon, but I liked it in the Table Top. It isnt used correctly by 90% of the people here in MWO. Most of the gamers here use it as a brawler, and the Dragon is a horrible brawler, it is a striker, or a long range flanking mech.

I have 2 Dragons, the base Dragon with the AC/5, and all I did with it, was upgrade the HS to DHS, and put a UAC/5 and moved the ammo from the torso to the arm dropping a ton of LRM ammo for the UAC5.

And my Flame, which is the ONLY Dragon that I can convert into a Grand Dragon. I have put a ERPPC in the right arm, and put DHS on it. My next thing is replace the 300 with a 360XL to make it a true Grand Dragon.

My Grand Dragon/Flame I think I have a 1.5:1 K/D ratio PUGing it. And have done well over 2500 damage in 10-15 matches. It is my go to money maker now.

I found it is easier not to run into the middle of the scrum and just stay about 600m out and pick off the brawlers as they circle jerk each other.

Edited by Sayyid, 18 March 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Elizander, on 18 March 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Hunchbacks and Centurions can do the same thing on Standard Engines. Their Alphas are actually a bit higher and they move faster. I like Dragons, but that's not a very compelling argument in their favor.

I like the arm-mounted weapons on a Dragon, but for most people, that does not make up for the large center torso. It's fine with me though.

Once again, Gauss rifle is the difference, adding further versatility over the mediums.

Not sure how many more times ill have to repeat myself *sigh*

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Stone Profit]

Artgathan, on 18 March 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

A few threads have popped up here recently discussing competitive play balancing and overall chassis balancing (such as 'Is every chassis viable for competitive play?'). The general consensus appears to be 'no'. I've seen a lot of players claim that the Dragon is a "trash chassis". I'd like to know why (I've never piloted a Dragon, aside from a few trial mechs a long time ago, so I don't have much insight).

Is it the hardpoints? Is it the way the hardpoints are distributed? Is it the size of the CT? Is it the Torso Twist?

Please be specific about what you think the problem is. I'd like to get discussion going about:

1. What the Dragon's problems are, and
2. What we can do to fix them.

I'd like to see all mechs have a place in competitive play. Variety is good. The point of this thread is to analyze the problems underlying balance issues, and see if we - the players - can find solutions to help level the playing field.

Answer: Its not, you just have to know how to use it. Move fast and dont stop firing. when you get too hot run away. Perfect harrasser.

Edited by Stone Profit, 18 March 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

It's not a big difference. Do the math. You essentially buy yourself a couple less seconds for the catapults to put 100 SRMs into your nose.

Look at how speed actually works.

Gaan Cathal, on 18 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Note I didn't say "minor speed difference", I said "minor speed advantage". In real terms, if a Dragon and a Splatcat encounter eachother at 135m (half of Splat range) then the Dragon takes 6.4s to get out of Splat range (actually a bit longer with splash in, but that's vanishing on the 2^nd) assuming they are both already travelling perpendicular and he has no need to maneuver. In that time the Splatcat can fire two volleys minimum and the Dragon need only be slowed by 1.2s worth of maneuvering to allow him a third. This is assuming the worst case scenario for the Catapult - i.e. that he is in a Splatcat. Any Catapult build with a range beyond the hard 270m cap SRMs apply will obviously continue to put damage on the Dragon for a longer period of time.

Sorry guys, but wrong, wrong, wrong and even more wrong. Just no.

Here's how speed when running a Dragon REALLY works:

My weapons shoot more than 270m (remember, we already established the Dragon isn't an SRM boat). 107 kph means I never put myself within 270m of a splatcat. 107kph means I can run away from splatcat, with extra margin to maneuver enough to bring the arm mounted weapons to bear on said splatcat, even if runs directly for me. He won't ever even get within range.

I don't know if you guys ever run Dragons, but when I'm in my Flame, a Splatcat is one of the least worrisome mechs. A Dragon who falls victim to such a short range, one trick build is either: 1) a poor pilot unaware of his surroundings or 2) a poor builder unaware of his chassis, who probably tried to use an XL300 to fit bigger ballistics.

The Dragon chassis has its shortcomings, but dealing with such slow SRM boats is NOT it.

[LoganMkv]

Dragons could shine if we had really big maps with crucial points in the middle, so either you pilot a fast mech or arrive in your fatlas 3 minutes late.

[Gaan Cathal]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 18 March 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Sorry guys, but wrong, wrong, wrong and even more wrong. Just no.

Here's how speed when running a Dragon REALLY works:

My weapons shoot more than 270m (remember, we already established the Dragon isn't an SRM boat). 107 kph means I never put myself within 270m of a splatcat. 107kph means I can run away from splatcat, with extra margin to maneuver enough to bring the arm mounted weapons to bear on said splatcat, even if runs directly for me. He won't ever even get within range.

I don't know if you guys ever run Dragons, but when I'm in my Flame, a Splatcat is one of the least worrisome mechs. A Dragon who falls victim to such a short range, one trick build is either: 1) a poor pilot unaware of his surroundings or 2) a poor builder unaware of his chassis, who probably tried to use an XL300 to fit bigger ballistics.

The Dragon chassis has its shortcomings, but dealing with such slow SRM boats is NOT it.

Fine, quad-large-laser Cat, same speed. It's not enough difference. Unless you're proposing to kite a Catapult across the entire map while the rest of both teams ignore you both.

LoganMkv, on 18 March 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Dragons could shine if we had really big maps with crucial points in the middle, so either you pilot a fast mech or arrive in your fatlas 3 minutes late.

They do seem to do a little better on Alpine, but the problem is they still don't have a firepower/speed combo that can't be met by a lighter mech, and the armour increase is marginal.

[xDeityx]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

More armor?

What medium do you speak of? Because none of them will have a gauss rifle. Im assuming an Mlas SRM6 combo.

The Dragon is more versatile than they are. Once again, that is a great perk for playing solo, but doesn't bring anything to the table for competative play.

Im not trying to say they are viable for competative play, because they are not, im just explaining what they ARE good at.

You are ignoring Opportunity Cost and arguing against the straw man argument that nobody put forth, that the Dragon is worthless. Yes, Dragons can do things. No, they are never the best choice.

[Elizander]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Once again, Gauss rifle is the difference, adding further versatility over the mediums.

Not sure how many more times ill have to repeat myself *sigh*

I'm not arguing here. Like I said, I like the Dragon, but I couldn't help but at least try to make something that could fit with your comment! Given I had to switch it to XL to fit the Gauss!

Centurion 50 Alpha with Gauss (Same speed as 300XL Dragon).

[General Taskeen]

If they didn't make the damn CT on the Dragon stick out so much, it might be fine. Not even the original Dragon was that fat and had bigger side torsos.

[Sayyid]

xDeityx, on 18 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

You are ignoring Opportunity Cost and arguing against the straw man argument that nobody put forth, that the Dragon is worthless. Yes, Dragons can do things. No, they are never the best choice.

"Straw Man" argument must be the thing they are teaching kids now days in school. Everyone is using that as a counter to any argument and that in itself is a poor counter. Its akin to screaming "Liar, liar, pants on fire!"

This isnt against you, I am just tired of seeing these tired over used, often Googled statements used by the want to appear educated responses.

[Serapth]

The only problem with the Dragon is the Catapult.

Frankly you can say...

The only problem with _______ is the Catapult for quite a few things.

Because the Catapult is stupidly out of wack with other mechs in the game, and PGI have shown little initiative towards balancing it. When the Catapult is nearly as fast, has better hardpoints, is boatable to hell in a game that should be called BoatWarrior Online, the best turning radius in the game and more armor, you know they dropped the ball bigtime.


I defend the Dragon quite commonly, but reality is, it's Flame that's good, 3 of the 4 non-MC Dragon's have outright horrible

[xDeityx]

Sayyid, on 18 March 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

"Straw Man" argument must be the thing they are teaching kids now days in school. Everyone is using that as a counter to any argument and that in itself is a poor counter. Its akin to screaming "Liar, liar, pants on fire!"

This isnt against you, I am just tired of seeing these tired over used, often Googled statements used by the want to appear educated responses.

That may be, but I used it in the correct sense as an appropriate reply. Perhaps you should save your lamentations on the overuse of the word for when it's used incorrectly. It is also one of the most common fallacies that people make as well, so I'm not surprised that it gets pointed out a lot.

[3rdworld]

Sayyid, on 18 March 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

"Straw Man" argument must be the thing they are teaching kids now days in school. Everyone is using that as a counter to any argument and that in itself is a poor counter. Its akin to screaming "Liar, liar, pants on fire!"

This isnt against you, I am just tired of seeing these tired over used, often Googled statements used by the want to appear educated responses.

This is relevant to the topic at hand.

[Corvus Antaka]

Because it doesnt make a good boat, and in open class the best boats are what win matches.

[Artgathan]

Does anyone have other suggestions on how to improve the Dragon chassis to make it more competitive?

So far we have:

• Reduce the size of the CT
  
• Relocate / Redistribute Weapon Hardpoints
  
• Perhaps give a 10% weight saving when using engines rated 300 or higher (so if you used a 360 engine, it would only actually weigh 36 tons instead of 40).

[sC4r]

i recently bought 5N which is presumably the worst variant of dragons

you see i used to look down on all dragons due to their overall lack of effectiveness so i wanted to give it a try if im right or not
so after lots of builds i tried on it to make it work i settled on this
ac5+3tons and uac5+5 tons, 2ML, xl300 and 12 DHS
and i must say im quite surprised what kind of damage it can deal

a few notes about this...
its pretty much imposible to overheat this thing
under no circumstances you must not be alone... should any decend light pilot find you you are dead meat
this mech is good in pack of several faster mechs like centurion/trenchbucket or support for atlases

generally you should come into brawl as second and rip apart any damaged mechs... pretty much u let the brawlers to soften enemies and you come in to finish the job... if u ever try to go headfirst and your uac5 decides to jam... well you will be roasted soon enough

also you can quite nicely kill guys that loaded their mechs with only very short ranged weapons and are slower than you... like splatcat ... if you keep safe distance they will never reach you since in most cases you are faster