304 replies to this topic

[LackofCertainty]

Thontor, on 20 March 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

no, they don't... it's our job to tweak mechs when we buy them. they come how they come from the factory.




they plan to

First off, thanks for the dev quote. I had not seen that, and it puts this issue mostly to rest for me.


However, I still want to respond to your first bit.

It is their job to make sure that the trial mechs are 100% functional. They can be designed in ways that most players don't consider perfect, but everything in them must function and be viable. If tweaking the mechs or the gear is required to do that, then that is what PGI has to do. Since they are planning on tweaking CASE so that it works in XL engine mechs, I have no further complaints about the JM6-DD. Sooner would be better, but as long as they don't put the JM6-DD in the trial mech rotation until CASE is adjusted, it won't be an issue.

Honestly, with the game balance as is, they still need to make SHS's be a viable option, because most trial mechs have them. SHS's don't need to be the best, but there needs to be a reason for a mech to run them that doesn't strictly handicap said mech. (kinda off topic in here, but I'm adamant on that point) The DHS vs. SHS balance in TT was based on price, but, with the way MWO's economy works, that doesn't work here. Every player will want to always upgrade to DHS's, which both makes customization less interesting, and furthers the gap between trial mechs and "real" mechs.

Trial mechs should be fully functional designs that give players a taste of different play styles. They should basically be demo mechs that are meant to sell players on different chassis, not gimped heaps that only exist to punish new players until they can afford to buy their own mech. For an example of this in another game, see League of Legends. If you play a free week champion, you get access to their full power. They don't punish you for playing a champ you don't own; They give you full access to that champ to see if it's something you'd like to play more often. Granted, that setup doesn't transition perfectly into MWO, but making sure trial mechs are viable goes a long way to tempting players into buying one for themselves. (and creates good will with the free players)

Edited by LackofCertainty, 20 March 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Atheus]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 20 March 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Atheus this is patnetly absurd, and I am getting a good chuckle at your expense from this paragraph. Let's think about this, shall we? Because I can see that you have yet to do so on this subject. I can name several things in this game that, if your logic was to be followed, we would have to change JUST to satisfy your draconian need to have function trump form. Examples:

• Remove Machine guns from the game. They are primarily intended for anti-infantry and their usefulness on 'mechs could be seen as a drain on PGI development effort.
  
• Remove all air scoops from the game. There is no air in MW:O for 'mechs to use fro air cooling.
  
• Remove all hand and foot ladders from all 'mechs. We do not climb into or out of our 'mechs so these are not needed.
  
• Remove all tow hooks from all 'mechs. We do not have anything to tow in MW:O.
  
• Remove all aerials and antenna from all 'mechs. We do not use them, we use chat inside MW:O and VOIP out of it and therefore these emitter / recievers are never used.
  
• Remove the JagerMech from the game. It's primary purpose as anti-air is void as there are no aircraft to shoot down yet, and even after there ARE aircraft to shoot PGI will likely not allow the JM6 to perform it's primary duty.
  
• Remove buttons and screens from the cockpits of all 'mechs as most of them are never used.
  
• Remove all hand actuators from all mechs that have them. PGI has serious issues producing viable code on a regular basis, so it should come as no surprise the hand actuators in MW:O do absolutely nothing, and likely never will. This is programming that is drastically far out of their reach, pardon the pun. Therefore remove them as they serve no purpose, both from the 'mechlab and the 'mech itself.
  
• And so on, and so forth.

Short version - next time please do not ask for frivolous modifications to the game in one instance, unless you wish to keep amusing people with your whimsy in which case, carry on with a job well done.

It's a subjective matter of scale, here. Sure, a ladder, a tow hook - who cares. They're just cosmetic, non-functional design elements that answer the question - how does the pilot get in there? The buttons and controls in the cockpit serve another imaginary purpose. Hand actuators - if they never intend to add melee to the game, they certainly should get rid of them. However, when there is a major design element that is supposed to perform a particular purpose, like an antenna that makes up 30% of the torso, or how about the axman's giant 5 ton axe. If they want to introduce an axman mech with a giant model of an axe on it, that design element is significant enough that if it doesn't actually DO anything it's just going to look silly. But that's not even the problem here. There are indeed various mechanics in the game that I can imagine justifying an enormous antenna - just that none of those mechanics are part of the only mech that actually has a giant antenna as part of its design.

Imagine a mech which had a visual design that incorporated dozens of machine guns sticking out of every appendage front and back, but in terms of hard points only had 4 lasers and 2 missiles. Such a design would make you think that the art team is just off on their own doing whatever they think looks cool disregarding the actual mech design entirely. When there's such a vast difference between form and function, it just dampens my enthusiasm for the game design.

It's a little ironic that at the same time as introducing a mech with a giant, useless antenna, they made it the flagship for their new unique ballistic weapon models with visuals that match the function.

[Wintersdark]

My feedback -

Pros:

• It looks awesome. Many will find it hideously ugly, but that's part of what makes it awesome.
  
• All the variants are usable. Usually one or two of the variants for a new mech are crap, but not with the Jagermech. They're all good.
  
• The team did a great job of implementing the ballistic modular graphics. They're fantastic. It's amazing to see what mechs are armed with by looking at them.

Cons:

• OMGWTF is with the Jagermech's head hitbox. Good lord. I was cockpitted more times yesterday than in the last 3 months combined. This is not ok - I'm fine with being headshotted, I'm ok with where the head hitbox is, but it's waaaaay too big. It's absurdly easy to accidentally headshot them. It's just not right; it ruins gameplay with them.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Atheus, on 20 March 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Spoiler

It's a subjective matter of scale, here. Sure, a ladder, a tow hook - who cares. They're just cosmetic, non-functional design elements that answer the question - how does the pilot get in there? The buttons and controls in the cockpit serve another imaginary purpose. Hand actuators - if they never intend to add melee to the game, they certainly should get rid of them. However, when there is a major design element that is supposed to perform a particular purpose, like an antenna that makes up 30% of the torso, or how about the axman's giant 5 ton axe. If they want to introduce an axman mech with a giant model of an axe on it, that design element is significant enough that if it doesn't actually DO anything it's just going to look silly. But that's not even the problem here. There are indeed various mechanics in the game that I can imagine justifying an enormous antenna - just that none of those mechanics are part of the only mech that actually has a giant antenna as part of its design.

Imagine a mech which had a visual design that incorporated dozens of machine guns sticking out of every appendage front and back, but in terms of hard points only had 4 lasers and 2 missiles. Such a design would make you think that the art team is just off on their own doing whatever they think looks cool disregarding the actual mech design entirely. When there's such a vast difference between form and function, it just dampens my enthusiasm for the game design.

It's a little ironic that at the same time as introducing a mech with a giant, useless antenna, they made it the flagship for their new unique ballistic weapon models with visuals that match the function.

I guess it's "agree to disagree" time then. I see absolutely zero point to making the aerial on the JM6 have some sort of function in MW:O that runs counter to it's function and purpose. Frankly I rather think PGI will agree with me on this as well. There really isn't anything that can be done to the JM6 to give the emitter / reciever wing an ingame purpose that would satisfy you without going completely off the rails into something it doesn't actually do.

And to be fair the JagerMech is not the only one with such sensors represented on it, it's just the only one you take affront to, what about the others? Why this one only? Where's the line? This is why it's best left as it is.

EDIT Then again, perhaps there is a sensible middle ground here, after all: Simply give the JM6 models a unique-to-them Sensor Range boost under the quirk system. THAT I could see, as it would not turn the antenna into something it is not.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 20 March 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Atheus, on 20 March 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Just restating things that have already been said, but here's the rundown of things I agree with:

• Head is far too easy to hit, and far too easy to hit by accident because it's so close to center of mass. Move it up, and shrink it, imo.
  
• Cockpit looks great, but if I'm going to try to shoot down or up anywhere near the extent of the arms swivel, I can't see the targeting reticles. Pilot view needs to either move forward permanently, or lean forward when aiming low or high. What serious weapon designer would make the weapons aim places the pilot can't see? It's just silly. There are other mechs with this same problem. They should be fixed too.
  
• 3 ballistics on arms is just not viable with current ballistic choices. Maybe down the road we'll have ballistic weapons more to the tune of 3-5 tons per weapon, but nobody can fit 6 AC/2's and have a reasonable amount of ammo to feed them.
  
• Ballistic ammo - which jagermechs depend on heavily - need more shots per ton in general. Double armor means you need to do a lot more shooting - and I know the values were bumped up a bit, but they need to come up a bit more. My suggestion is to standardize on about 200 damage per ton.

• ac20 - 10/ton
  
• ac10 - 20/ton
  
• ac5/uac5 - 40/ton
  
• ac2 - 100/ton
  
• gauss 13/ton

I could write an essay in response to your post so +1. All of these points are definately viable - in particular i found it annoying moving the ups up, but not actually being able to see where they were aiming.. ..it is very restrictive on your abilities; not much use having that movement, standing on top of a mountain and not being able to shoot down cause you cant see out the cockpit. I think the view of the pilot should definately be moved forward to take this into account and the pilot needs an extended vertical view.

Also i like your third point - having a 3 tonne ballistic would be a HUGE HUGE HUGE plus. Even more of a benefit would be a three slot ballistic - so you can fit 3 ballistics on the arms of the dragon etc etc.

[White Bear 84]

On a side note i would love the ability to lower your arms while still being able to free look - particularly useful if your going to hide around a corner or want to line up the guns with torso to reduce the targetable area of your mech (side on).

This would make for a good quirk for the jager.

[GrizzlyViking]

Head and R/L Torso hit boxes need adjustment. Titanium arms with tissue Torsos. Jager is the easiest kill in the game right now.

[Main Man]

I've mastered all 3 variants and played about 10 pug rounds in each. The missile variant has some promise but the other two are simply awful death traps. My best mechs are the Centurion A and D, Cataphract 3d, and Catapult C1 and K2. I was so excited for the Jäger. It's right in my sweet spot at 65 tons with ballistics and energy.

The sad reality is in order for it to mount ballistics effectively it needs an XL engine but its side torso hit box and head hit box are so huge that the damn thing blows up like benzene exposed to open flame. It's harder to hit CT than either the heads or side torsos. So even at long range it's being destroyed easily and quickly.

It has extremely poor agility and due to a lack of arm actuators cannot hit targets at different elevations (odd for a supposedly anti air mech). This has been my single worst purchase in MWO.

[Taron]

Well, my build is a killer, but sometimes - ONE hit at my cockpit and i'm down.Not 2 or 3 or 4,only 1 hit

Edited by Taron, 20 March 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Main Man, on 20 March 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

I've mastered all 3 variants and played about 10 pug rounds in each.

How can you master each variant in 10 rounds - generally speaking you get around 800xp per match for a win (can be less, can be more). So your saying you mastered your mech with 8000xp?

**Realistically, assuming you win each round, the total time to master each variant would be around 66.5 matches (assuming approximately 53,000 xp for all unlocks and 800xp per win. Assuming you won every match, that is probably around 5 minutes in each match, plus 1/2 minutes between match (being generous), so lets say 6 minutes each match. Multiply by three for each variant - 1197 minutes or 19.95 hours. Pretty sure the patch was only just over 24 hours ago....

Did you use MC to master your variants?

On a side note - you can fit XL's in them so mobility is not an issue, i got mine up to 80k and if you hold down shift you can free aim, which means you can shoot at different elevations.

**Dont have my console (at work) so rough maths - dont qoute me on exact figures

Edited by White Bear 84, 20 March 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[Devil Fox]

Reviewing the head hit-box of the jagermech in the mechlab... can we get PGI confirmation that the hitbox is meant to the central plain of the viewport, because I see 2 spurs when highlighting this hit-box that stick into the side-torso's... this might be the issue with splash damage onto the head for the Jagermech.

[Main Man]

White Bear 84, on 20 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

How can you master each variant in 10 rounds - generally speaking you get around 800xp per match for a win (can be less, can be more). So your saying you mastered your mech with 8000xp?

**Realistically, assuming you win each round, the total time to master each variant would be around 66.5 matches (assuming approximately 53,000 xp for all unlocks and 800xp per win. Assuming you won every match, that is probably around 5 minutes in each match, plus 1/2 minutes between match (being generous), so lets say 6 minutes each match. Multiply by three for each variant - 1197 minutes or 19.95 hours. Pretty sure the patch was only just over 24 hours ago....

Did you use MC to master your variants?

On a side note - you can fit XL's in them so mobility is not an issue, i got mine up to 80k and if you hold down shift you can free aim, which means you can shoot at different elevations.

**Dont have my console (at work) so rough maths - dont qoute me on exact figures

GXP.

[NKAc Street]

Only gripe I have, like the treb and at one time the cat, the super easy to hit heads, fix it please so at least if you get a head shot it was well earned.

Edited by NKAc Street, 20 March 2013 - 07:27 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Main Man, on 20 March 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

GXP.

Haha thought so..

It killed some time at work figuring out the maths at least..

[Lord de Seis]

Head hit box seems a bit big, LRM's seem to head cap it very easily.

Also it is not showing up in the battlemech stats.

[Tenzek]

Kaeb Odellas, on 19 March 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Cicada's head was oversized when it was released as well. Didn't matter as much with a fast mech, but it still had a pretty huge noggin.

The Atlas and Catapult also went through this.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Tenzek, on 20 March 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

The Atlas and Catapult also went through this.

And the Awesome, and the Cataphract...

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 20 March 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 20 March 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

And the Awesome, and the Cataphract...

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 20 March 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Royalewithcheese, on 20 March 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Spoiler

Yeah, I'd like to think that theres plenty of people who can recognize when they've made a mistake after doing it once or twice. Screwing up the same way 5 or 6 times... that's starting to fall less under the heading of "competence" and more under the heading of "basic definition of insanity". It's like touching boiling water thinking it's safe, over, and over, and over again. At some point you have to start questioning the mental faculties of anyone who can't - or won't - learn.

[Arkmaus]

When zoomed in, the tracers for the ACs seem to be invisible (i.e., you cant see the shot, only the muzzleblast). I tested this on the UAC5, still need to check the others out.