76 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Omni 13, on 19 March 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

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

[BlakeAteIt]

Budor, on 19 March 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

[Vrekgar]

[MaddMaxx]

Jules Gonzales, on 19 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

But they didn't suck in mech2 or 3.

Obviously never met a medium with 14MG or a sunder with HMG

Let's see. We have neither a Medium with 14 Ballistic points, nor the Sunder, nor the HMG. Hmmm. You were going to make a point right?

[Commander Kobold]

Roland, on 19 March 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

wasn't a meme,also normally when I try to post something that way it does work.

[Zouron]

to all that loves machine guns I present to you the Piranha!

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha


Description
The Piranha was developed by Clan Diamond Shark shortly before the Battle of Tukayyid to combat Inner Sphere conventional infantry and light vehicles. The sheer speed that the BattleMech is capable of has also made it something of a scout, though it lacks sophisticated electronic equipment. ThePiranha is protected mostly by its speed, though it does mount four tons of armor. In the late 3060s, Clan Ice Hellion bid for and won the right to produce the 'Mech themselves. The Hellions have created new variants on the Piranha, though they maintain the original design philosophy.^[4][5][6]

Armament
The Piranha's main threat is its twelve Series XII Rotary Machine Guns. These are a serious threat on such a speedy 'Mech to any foe, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles.

Edited by Zouron, 19 March 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[GumbyC2C]

Mercules, on 19 March 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

They didn't suck in TT and while they kill infantry better than most weapons they were still fine for hurting mechs.

disagree. MG is going to cost you at least 1.5 tons and two slots for a weapon that has a max range of 3 and does 2 damage. Small laser costs 1 slot and a half ton and has the same range but no ammo requirement. Speaking of ammo, which weapon has the most devastating ammo explosion? The MG. 200 rounds of ammo per ton at two per round means you cant get rid of it fast enough to mitigate the explosion. The only good thing about it is it does not produce heat when you fire it and it was pretty good in numbers if you were using the Solaris rules since it had no cooldown time. But in standard TT, I will take a small laser over an MG any day of the week and Med Laser is way better for the tonnage/crits taken up.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Mercules, on 19 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

If you have never used them, how do you know they sucked?

They were actually pretty powerful in 2&3 they only sucked in 4 because of the weapon system where you could not take 18 of them and a few small Pulse Lasers and sandblast the armor off a mech in 5 seconds.

They suck because they are in our game, period....

[S3dition]

EyeOne, on 19 March 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Who cares? Ha, oh right, the OP does.

But seriously. MGs suck. They have always sucked in MW games. In 17 years of MW games I've never once used them. Or flamers.

Thats funny. 14 MG in Mechwarrior 3 could kill any mech in about 3 seconds. try it out.

Quote

disagree. MG is going to cost you at least 1.5 tons and two slots for a weapon that has a max range of 3 and does 2 damage. Small laser costs 1 slot and a half ton and has the same range but no ammo requirement. Speaking of ammo, which weapon has the most devastating ammo explosion? The MG. 200 rounds of ammo per ton at two per round means you cant get rid of it fast enough to mitigate the explosion. The only good thing about it is it does not produce heat when you fire it and it was pretty good in numbers if you were using the Solaris rules since it had no cooldown time. But in standard TT, I will take a small laser over an MG any day of the week and Med Laser is way better for the tonnage/crits taken up.

Or 11 slots and 6 tons for a weapon that does 20 damage, generates no heat, and requires 10 separate criticals to destroy.

Edited by S3dition, 23 March 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zouron, on 19 March 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

to all that loves machine guns I present to you the Piranha!

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha


Description
The Piranha was developed by Clan Diamond Shark shortly before the Battle of Tukayyid to combat Inner Sphere conventional infantry and light vehicles. The sheer speed that the BattleMech is capable of has also made it something of a scout, though it lacks sophisticated electronic equipment. ThePiranha is protected mostly by its speed, though it does mount four tons of armor. In the late 3060s, Clan Ice Hellion bid for and won the right to produce the 'Mech themselves. The Hellions have created new variants on the Piranha, though they maintain the original design philosophy.^[4][5][6]

Armament
The Piranha's main threat is its twelve Series XII Rotary Machine Guns. These are a serious threat on such a speedy 'Mech to any foe, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds. For work against hardened targets, the Piranha mounts a pair of Mk. 3ER Medium Lasers and a single Series 1 ER Small Laser. Since the design only uses ten single heat sinks, the MechWarrior must still manage heat levels. The ammunition dependency of the Machine Guns ensure that Piranhas must stay close to supply lines, so most have been relegated to solahma or garrison roles.

Which may be why the devs are trying to keep MGs from being OP. 12 MGs if implemented wrong would be grossly unbalancing!

Yes MGs need some love, But This is the chassis that will make or break how good MGs need to be.

[S3dition]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Which may be why the devs are trying to keep MGs from being OP. 12 MGs if implemented wrong would be grossly unbalancing!

Yes MGs need some love, But This is the chassis that will make or break how good MGs need to be.

This is where the current hard point system breaks down. Lets assume MG don't exist - this mech would still have 12 ballistic hard points. 12! Do any mechs even have that many mixed hard points currently? And that's on top of 3 additional energy hard points, for a grand total of 15.

Yet it's only 20 tons, so what would you put in it?

Edited by S3dition, 23 March 2013 - 04:53 AM.

[TheGreatNoNo]

Team Leader, on 19 March 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

*reads patch notes
*clenches fists
"THATS IT! I QUIT THIS GAME FIVEVER!
*rips keyboard violently out of the computer, wires snap
*impales monitor with it, keys fly around the room
*breaks open 10th story window by throwing PC through it
*jumps out the other window beside it, smashing glass everywhere
"Life is pointless! Why is PGI so cruel! Still no word on MACHINE GUNSSSSSS!!!....."
*lands on conveniently placed bouncy castle
*posts thread on forums

/rage

thoughts? PGI, any response?


DISCLAIMER: this thread is NOT about consumables. Jules Gonzales is trolling all of you!

You forgot to put in this.
http://youtu.be/aaSRYecKaqc

Edited by Lost One, 23 March 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Greetings, thread.

Joseph Mallan, on 23 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Which may be why the devs are trying to keep MGs from being OP. 12 MGs if implemented wrong would be grossly unbalancing!

Yes MGs need some love, But This is the chassis that will make or break how good MGs need to be.

Okay, then, let's talk about the Piranha - the primary variant specifically.

It is armed with 12x MGs, 2x ERMLAS and 1x SMLAS.

Only the MGs have been implemented in MWO at this point, so my damage calculations for the ER Medium and Small Lasers could be off the mark; I will, however, assume that they possess the same cooldown time as standard Medium and Small Lasers respectively.

Damage is -very- important for this 'Mech as it is not really intended for scouting (though its high speed is of great help in this role if necessary).
As for the MGs themselves, the bonus to their critical chance and damage are both very nice but not reliable.

Thus, damage will be the object of my little investigation.

First, I will present the damage potential of 12x MGs.

12 x 0.4 DPS = 4.8 DPS or 0.48 Instant Damage.

As a single ton of MG ammo represents 80 points of potential damage, it would take the Piranha about 16,6 seconds to deplete one ton of ammunition and deal 80 points of damage; in order to sustain its assault for one minute, the chassis would require roughly 3,6 tons of ammuntion, dealing 288 points of damage in the process.
This would require 12 x 0.5 + 4 or 10 tons in total.

A single AC/2 (working as intended at 4 DPS) could deal the same amount of damage at a much greater range (exactly 8 times greater than the MG effective range) and it would weight just 8 tons, not accounting for heat generation.

The pair of ER Medium Lasers deal negligible Instant Damage, as does the single ER Small Laser; however, these weapons can potentially deal 19 points of damage with 1 and 0.75 second beam durations respectively.

Theoretically, a single ER Small Laser would require 7 HS to achieve heat neutrality and the two ER Medium Lasers would require 14 HS each to achieve heat neutrality - 35 HS in total.
The Piranha, however, is only equipped with 10 HS, resulting in a whooping 1.22 sustained DPS for its Lasers.

Still assuming heat neutrality for the MGs, the Piranha would deal 1.22 + 4.80 = 6.02 DPS as long as its MG ammunition lasted.

Combined with the damage output of 12 heat-neutral MGs firing for one second, this amounts to 23.8 points of damage in one Alpha Strike; it would take a Piranha about 5.4 seconds to destroy a fully armored Cockpit or 7.9 seconds to destroy the fully-armored Center Torso of a Commando.

It would take a Piranha about 14.7 seconds to destroy an Atlas with 28 points of Rear Center Torso armor from behind and 25.7 seconds to core that Atlas from the front (assuming full armor)

Assuming 85% pilot accuracy for Laser weapons as well as MGs, however, the effective Alpha Strike damage for this 'Mech is now 20.23 and its DPS is 5.1 - it would take a Piranha about 6.4 seconds to destroy a Cockpit or 9.4 seconds to destroy the fully-armored Center Torso of a Commando.

It would then take a Piranha about 17.4 seconds to core an Atlas with 28 points of Rear Center Torso armor from behind and 30.0 seconds to core that Atlas from the front (assuming full armor).

Comparatively, a JR7-D with 2x SRM4 + 4 MLAS could core an Atlas from the front in 18 seconds.

All of this 'Mech's weapons are incapable of dealing any significant amount of Instant Damage; as a result, the Piranha will spread its potential damage all over a targeted 'Mech instead of focusing down a single component as well as depend upon extended engagements to damage its enemies.
That is very dangerous for a 20-ton 'Mech: the longer a Piranha engages an enemy, the more time that enemy will have to target and eventually destroy the Piranha.

Furthermore, once 'Mech collisions and knockdowns are reintroduced, a Piranha pilot will either be forced to engage his targets from longer ranges (thus reducing the 'Mech's MG damage by 1/2 at 180m or 2/3 at 270m) or risk being trampled, knocked down and killed by heavier 'Mechs at shorter ranges.
It does not possess Jump Jets, either, which compounds its innate vulnerabilities with very poor mobility for a Light 'Mech.

- TL;DR: -

My conclusion is that the Piranha will not be combat-effective without a buff to MG damage, effective range or accuracy.
Likewise, MGs will not be useful to other 'Mechs without a significant damage buff.

- TL;DR: -

EDIT: Revised the damage numbers because I derped.

Farewell, thread.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 23 March 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Mercules, on 19 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

If you have never used them, how do you know they sucked?

They were actually pretty powerful in 2&3 they only sucked in 4 because of the weapon system where you could not take 18 of them and a few small Pulse Lasers and sandblast the armor off a mech in 5 seconds.

Right because boating machine guns is so much more fun to face than an SRM cat..... oh wait.

Personally I'm kind of glad for hardpoint limitations that at least somewhat limit 18 machine gun type cheese.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Vodrin Thales, on 23 March 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Right because boating machine guns is so much more fun to face than an SRM cat..... oh wait.

Personally I'm kind of glad for hardpoint limitations that at least somewhat limit 18 machine gun type cheese.

Assuming perfect accuracy on part of the pilot...
From under 90m, a 'Mech with 18 MGs would require 31.5 seconds to destroy the Center Torso of a fully armored (CT:94, RT:28) Atlas from the front; it would also consume 2 tons of ammunition in the process.
At 180m or more, the same 'Mech would require 58 seconds to achieve the same result, consuming 4 tons of ammunition.

At 270m, the MG boat would require 94.3 seconds to destroy the Atlas and it would consume 6 tons of ammunition in the process.

MGs = useless.

Boating MGs = also useless.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 23 March 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[Voidsinger]

All I can say is that I miss the Paladin from the Solaris VII boxed set.

(And yes, it could be implemented now. 7 MGs in 1 arm, the poor man's AC/20)

[KuruptU4Fun]

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I used machineguns on my Timber Wolf Prime back in MW4... they backed up my lasers and kept continued DPS on the opposition.

that being said, machine guns have always, and will always... suck vs mechs, they're anti infantry weaponry... that's it... they're not ment to fight mechs, and frankly, the weapon should simply be removed from the game, as it serves no real purpose.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Jade Kitsune, on 23 March 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

I used machineguns on my Timber Wolf Prime back in MW4... they backed up my lasers and kept continued DPS on the opposition.

that being said, machine guns have always, and will always... suck vs mechs, they're anti infantry weaponry... that's it... they're not ment to fight mechs, and frankly, the weapon should simply be removed from the game, as it serves no real purpose.

With a little prompting they can, removing 1 weapon means the removal of 2-3 variants....

[Team Leader]

Jade Kitsune, on 23 March 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

that being said, machine guns have always, and will always... suck vs mechs, they're anti infantry weaponry... that's it... they're not ment to fight mechs, and frankly, the weapon should simply be removed from the game, as it serves no real purpose.

You are so wrong. They are meant to fight mechs. They are supposed to do the same damage as an AC2. Is the AC2 supposed to fight mechs? Cause in the source books it does the same damage!