41 replies to this topic

[M0rpHeu5]

Tragos, on 20 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

So all you suggest is that you buff the AC5 slightly?
AC5: 5dmg/reload 1.7 -> 5dmg/1.4

UAC5:5dmg/reload 1.1-> 5/1.1 - or did you mean with no jamm = no double shot?

no jam and no duble shot, just a better ac5 that is harder to use couse it takes up more space, tonage and builds up more heat

[Corvus Antaka]

General Taskeen, on 20 March 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

No. Please stop defending this terrible Ultra implementation. We don't need rolling dice mechanics in this game.

First of all, the jam is in place due to Ultra's initial, poor implementation -> AKA, the 'double shot,' two shells at once + better cool down (essentially, double double). It should have been simply 2x better fire rate and nothing more. Second, jams that are random rolling dice have no place in a skill based game.



(Go to 6:20)

Skill-based jamming is controlling how long an AC can fire before it jams. MW:LL did this by making the Autocannon itself 'soak' in the heat that each shot causes. If the barrel gets too hot, the gun jams, no randomness.

+1

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 21 March 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[bashpr0mpt]

With Misery your jam chance with only one ballistic slot is near 100%. Then again it isn't the first time we've seen a $40 mech that's utterly broken that the devs completely refuse to concede or address.

That said, to sum up everything I have read on the topic you have two options.

1. If you can time your mouse clicks of one button (whilst still managing and firing your other buttons) and get a click between 1.1 and 1.4 seconds flawlessly EVERY time then load an Ultra AC/5.

2. If you have a programmable mouse or are good with macros code away the jam, and code an unjam to run on screen flicker of #FF0000 hue just in case and load an Ultra AC/5.

OR.

1. If you can't guarantee any of the above 100% of the time, load an AC/5 and you will come out doing more damage with no jams, and your blood pressure will be significantly lower.

But please don't confuse this for MWO not being a horribly broken game with developers in denial who refuse to fix expensive mistakes that cost us--the player--disgustingly huge amounts of cash if you're anything like me or the people I know who've dumped more money into MWO than any game franchise in history.

Do understand this is logic, something which the game refuses to apply. If you are a ninja, the UAC5 is your friend, or if you are a gambler perhaps. If you aren't able to guarantee hacking the gibson and loading up with macros aplenty and can't perfectly 1.1-1.4 click a button amongst other buttons (you should at LEAST be able to pat your head and rub your belly to even attempt this) then you should be rocking an AC/5.

Let the complete abandonment of use of the UAC/5 show the developers our disdain for their shoddy lazy programming.

[Victor Morson]

There is a rule with the Ultra/5: If you have less than two you are doing it wrong.

The reason is because it's a "burst fire" weapon - the main reason it's better than the AC/5. You spit out a lot of grounds quickly, then go defensive. However, if you only have 1, there's a high chance your burst will simply.. stop, almost immediately.

If you have 3 guns minimum, however, the odds you will continue to have some firepower for a longer duration goes way up; even if one or two guns jam, you're still outputting sizable damage.

To be honest this weapon will go from a fun pugging gun to a top tier competitive weapon the very second we get a 'mech that can mount 4 and maintain full armor and a decent engine. 4 would be the spot I think they'd go from really good to exceptional.

[Satan n stuff]

Victor Morson, on 14 June 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

There is a rule with the Ultra/5: If you have less than two you are doing it wrong.

The reason is because it's a "burst fire" weapon - the main reason it's better than the AC/5. You spit out a lot of grounds quickly, then go defensive. However, if you only have 1, there's a high chance your burst will simply.. stop, almost immediately.

If you have 3 guns minimum, however, the odds you will continue to have some firepower for a longer duration goes way up; even if one or two guns jam, you're still outputting sizable damage.

To be honest this weapon will go from a fun pugging gun to a top tier competitive weapon the very second we get a 'mech that can mount 4 and maintain full armor and a decent engine. 4 would be the spot I think they'd go from really good to exceptional.

Or you use any other weapon in addition to the Ultra AC/5 ( regular AC/5 is a good choice ) so you won't have to deal with all your weapons being jammed all at once.
I think the Ultra AC/5 should have an increased chance to jam for every double shot fired, with the first double shot having no chance of causing it to jam. When the gun jams the number resets, and if you stop firing the chance of jamming will slowly go down again. The actual chance of jamming should increase faster as you keep shooting, for example roll 3d6 against a variable that increases by 3 per double shot and is lowered by 1 per second while the weapon is not on cooldown, if the outcome is equal or lower than the variable the gun jams and the variable is set to 0.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 15 June 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[Sephlock]

^ So long as I can sandblast the face off an Atlas, I'm fine with whatever .

[Joseph Mallan]

Stingz, on 19 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

The reduced cool-down is already there, but holding it leads to almost 100% jam rate. Use AC/5 or AC/10 if you don't like the risks.

This is what I do. I go sick of my weapon jamming when I was a S.A.W. Gunner.

[OneEyed Jack]

I can't wait for UAC20s. I may possibly pee myself the first time some big, scary mech with 2 of them comes around a corner, line's up on my CT........ and goes *click*, then dies before his guns un-jam. Pee myself laughing, that is.

[Gaan Cathal]

bashpr0mpt, on 14 June 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

With Misery your jam chance with only one ballistic slot is near 100%. Then again it isn't the first time we've seen a $40 mech that's utterly broken that the devs completely refuse to concede or address.

That said, to sum up everything I have read on the topic you have two options.

1. If you can time your mouse clicks of one button (whilst still managing and firing your other buttons) and get a click between 1.1 and 1.4 seconds flawlessly EVERY time then load an Ultra AC/5.

2. If you have a programmable mouse or are good with macros code away the jam, and code an unjam to run on screen flicker of #FF0000 hue just in case and load an Ultra AC/5.

OR.

1. If you can't guarantee any of the above 100% of the time, load an AC/5 and you will come out doing more damage with no jams, and your blood pressure will be significantly lower.

a: There is no convincing evidence I've seen that chassis has an affect on UAC/5 jam chance.

b: The point of the UAC/5 implementation is that it rewards good fire control, yes.

c: There is no unjam macro anymore, it just unjams on a timer. So no. However you could use a macro to cheat at b.

d: Whether it needs to be 100% of the time or not somewhat depends on your starting bloodpressure. Some people can handle jamming once in a while without going into paroxysms of rage when the risk they knew they took putting the gun in doesn't pay off.

[Tickdoff Tank]

My only problem with the UAC5 is it's increased ROF compared to the AC5. I do not mean the "double tap". I mean the base ROF. IMO the UAC5 should have the same cooldown as the AC5 and retain the double tap function. Prior to the recent AC5 buff I was asking for a 1.4 cooldown for both the AC5 and UAC5. Since we now have 1.5 for the AC5 I think 1.5 for the UAC5 would be acceptable.

In TT the UAC 5 had slightly increased range (like we have in MWO), the same ammo per ton as the AC5 (we have less ammo per ton here, but not a big deal), and the UAC5 fired once a round just like the AC5. If you chose, you could fire twice with a chance of jamming the weapon for the rest of the fight. The UAC5 was never meant to have a faster ROF than the AC5 without the chance of jamming. In MWO you can take advantage of the better ROF without jamming the weapon by simply not using the double tap. That should change, IMO.

[HiplyRustic]

UAC/5s are not OP or in need of a fix; they are the right weapon for the person willing to risk getting torn apart because they lost their firepower in return for the chance to obliterate someone. They are a high risk, high reward weapon...which is what balance is all about to me. Balance the potential reward with equivalent risk. The UAC/5 does this really well...it's clearly not OP or the world would be full of Ilya's and triple UAC/5 Jagers...and it's not.

If you luck out and deal 6-7 seconds of straight damage on a mech while bursting you'll ruin his match, if they hang you'll run or die. Fun.

To the OP, seriously, if the risk is too great for you to be happy with it then as others have said, change weapons.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 15 June 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Roland, on 20 March 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Almost all of the folks who complain about UAC5's don't understand how to use them correctly.

If you want to use UAC's, you need to NOT hold the trigger down unless you are willing to potentially jam the guns.

If you use a light touch, and press the trigger quickly (such that it never registers an attempt to fire on cooldown), then the guns will NEVER jam, and they crank out a massive amount of damage.

this

keep your fire rate down until you or your target are about to enter cover

when your firing window begins to close lay the hurt on

or when they present a wounded torso section - fill it with lead until everything is jammed

otherwise it is always better to just fire the single shot mode and keep the DPS consistent to make em sweat.

Edited by LordBraxton, 15 June 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[HiplyRustic]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 19 March 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I had a few ideas to make the AC5 more completive and to tone down the huge risk v. reward of the UAC5.

These definitely need an adjustment. Since they are within 1 ton of each other I think the DSP needs to be leveled out. The UAC/5 is an odd weapon it has a base DPS of 9.09 (it fires 2 shots every 1.1 seconds for 5 damage each) but it only has that DPS 75% of the time, which 25% of the time it jams for 3 seconds dropping its rate of fire to 1 shot in 3 seconds.

If you think UAC/5s only jam 25% of the time in "wahoooooooo!" mode you don't play them enough. Seriously, if that was the actual % of the time jammed I would never use another ballistic weapon when I could fit it. I've put slightly over 25,000 rounds of ammo through them so I have some idea what I'm talking about here and It's not like I am king of the hill with them and scared of a "nerf" either, my K/D ratio is only barely above 1 in my Ilya and it's higher in other mechs.

I simply think it's a fun risk/reward gun and one of the few that they balanced correctly.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 15 June 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Stingz, on 19 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

The reduced cool-down is already there, but holding it leads to almost 100% jam rate. Use AC/5 or AC/10 if you don't like the risks.

OR better yet, suggest that PGI overhaul Ultra's altogether so we aren't rolling dice anymore. Plus the "double shell full damage" mechanic is going to really show how silly this mechanic is with any of the other upcoming UAC/s.

Edited by General Taskeen, 15 June 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[DocBach]

General Taskeen, on 15 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

OR better yet, suggest that PGI overhaul Ultra's altogether so we aren't rolling dice anymore. Plus the "double shell full damage" mechanic is going to really show how silly this mechanic is with any of the other upcoming UAC/s.

The jamming mechanic is a really small portion of what is wrong with Ultra AC's. We'll see what's really wrong with them when Clan Ultra AC/20's come out and 50 ton OmniMechs can boat 2 of them, and all their shots land in the same hole.

[MasterErrant]

M0rpHeu5, on 19 March 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I'll speak with an example that happened too me. I armed my K2 with 2 UAC5 and went to fight. 1 encounter was an atlas, i hold the button down and he died in like 10sec. Next encounter i press the button and they jamm after shooting once.
Point is why having a gun that is 90% luck except if there is something more to it that i do not know.

I suggest to make it like a deferent ac5 like
AC5 --7tones --damage5 --reload time 1.4s --rest as it is
UAC5 --9tones --damage5 --reload time 1.1s --rest as it is (no jamm)
Makes more sence imo

how about they make the AC5ultra like an ac5 ultra and not a rotary? a little bigger and heavier than a stock AC5 with the same rof and able to fire and extra shot when you want it to...(By double tapping the fire button)

[Foxfire]

Eh.. I like how they are handled.

You can either shoot it and wait for the cooldown, ala AC/5 or if you want to, you can shoot during the cooldown in exchange for a chance to jam.

It isn't a chance to jam every shot but a chance to jam for every shot that happens during the weapon cooldown.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I've stopped using UAC5s a while back when every other shot is a JAM. Matches and Time to Kill are way too short to waste effectiveness on "all or nothing" damage.

Edited by lockwoodx, 16 June 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[EmperorMyrf]

Something definitely needs to change for UAC's, but it's not as pertinent an issue as other things. It just needs some revamping before UAC/20's arrive because they will wreck face following this current scheme.

Lets assume for a second that the AC/5 and AC/10 are done and won't be touched again, with fire rate anyways. I would first suggest the UAC/5 having its single fire recycle time pushed to 1.5 to match the AC/5. Then for double fire, retain the current scheme except for a small modification: When a second round is fired during cooldown, change the recycle time from 1.5 to 2.5, starting from the initial shot. Then, adjust the jam rate from 25% to 10% and set the unjam time at 4 seconds, on top of the shots remaining cooldown when it jammed. Single-fire DPS is now 3.33, same as the AC/5, and maximum possible DPS is 4, the same as the AC/10. The chosen jam rate and length was calculated from the transient DPS (as opposed to steady state DPS) to force the UAC5 to match the AC/5 in a quick engagement. So now the weapon will have its floor effectiveness be the AC/5, and its ceiling, the AC/10. Though, due to the nature of high alpha weapons, the UAC/5 will never be better than the AC/10. Which is a good thing, as it weighs 3 tons less and is 2 crits smaller. This is better shown graphically: here is a chart showing average DPS per unit time.

Spoiler

This graph assumes that the UAC/5 is firing with a 0% jam rate, and it puts itself nicely above the median between the AC/5 and AC/10.

This fix would require minimal effort on the dev side and would prove to be less frustrating to the players, as the jam rate would be 60% less than its current iteration. Once clan UAC's come, the other calibers would need to be adjusted with the same formulaic approach here, in addition to increasing the minimum time between the first and second shot. I would suggest 0.1s per damage, so the UAC/2 will have 0.2 seconds between, the UAC/10 will have 1 second between, and the UAC/20 will have 2 seconds between. This will ensure that no HBK-IIC can front load 80 damage before you are able to react to spread the damage.

Edited by EmperorMyrf, 16 June 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Fixing the UAC/5 in a way that works for the entire UAC line is actually fairly trivial, conceptually at least.

a: Set all UAC/5 values equal to AC/5 values - i.e. 5 damage, 1.5s cooldown, etc (with the possible exception of range)

b: Allow the UAC/5 to, after an arbitrary delay (say .375s for the sake of argument) to fire a second shot while in cooldown, triggering a chance to jam (jamming will prevent the second shot firing).

c: Leave unjamming mechanic as is, but ensure that jam chances are independent when groupfired.


What this does is keep the AC variants viable, due to being cheaper for the same baseline effectiveness. It will also solve the issue of the 'doubletap' turning a pair of UAC/20s into an AC/80 shot - after which whether or not they jam would be a moot point. The delay before enabling the second shot means that it'll be much harder to ensure they hit the same component, and allow for defensive twisting (the biggest problem with frontloaded alpha builds at the moment being less the former, more the latter) whilst retaining the requirement for good trigger discipline to use the weapon properly, with the added bonus that simply being a bit 'heavy on the trigger' won't cause a doubltap - thus reducing the ability of UAC/5 users who want the extra firepower without the drawback to complain on the forums.

As a note, I picked .375s for the 'hard cooldown' because - assuming the r.o.f was set to 1.5 to match the AC/5 - it would constitute 1/4 of the weapon's cooldown. That would provide a reasonable arithmetic basis for establishing equivalent numbers for other UACs.

It's also worth noting that this would make ballistic using Clanners require a decent level of trigger control to maintain non-doubletap and thus 0%-jam firing. And stop potential Clan assaults putting an AC/160 round in someone's CT without recourse (assuming there's a Clan assault with a RA/RT/LT/LA spread of ballistics, if there is it's not coming to mind).