52 replies to this topic

[Star Lancer]

What they need to do is look back at older Mechwarrior games. The damage ranges for all of the current weapons (minus the missile systems) are exactly the same as titles like Mechwarrior 2: Mercs and MW3. The missile damage in those were 1/missile for LRMs and 2/missile for SRMs. With the correct splash effects, those damage settings would put them just about right with the other weapon systems in the game. That's my 2 cents at any rate.

[Wesxander]

Pre upgrade was scoring tops of 750 damage a game with my LRM boat

During upgrade patch was scoring 1750 damage stopped playing LRM mech.

Hot fix Started playing LRm mech again damage is lucky to be 250 from the LRM's now.

Post Hot fix I landed 4 rounds of 50 LRm with artemis into a hunchback in the open with miniumal damage with tag locked on him. He simiply walked way didnt even strip a weapon.

Missles now do 70 percent less damage than before the upgrade for me. 70 percent might as well remove LRM's from the game and be done with it.

[MasterGoa]

Same here.

Tried yesterday evening and a 4 X LRM15 Art simply scrapes
a Phract held with Tag...

I would need about 6 volleys to kill it.

That is 360 missiles...

[Amaris the Usurper]

The OP has been updated. I have verified in live testing that missiles deal exactly 1.5 direct damage (plus splash damage to adjacent components). In Testing Grounds, the direct damage is exactly 3. Therefore, the earlier results do not represent how the hotfix affected live play and should be ignored. It is too late to know whether the pre-hotfix results are accurate.

[Lightfoot]

Well to put it bluntly Missiles... well I can't use that word... are worthless now. Every match I have been in this weekend, teams using heavy LRMs lose, even on maps like Caustic, Tourmaline, Alpine Valley.

Edited by Lightfoot, 24 March 2013 - 03:40 AM.

[arghmace]

The main problem with LRM's is that they don't hit. Doesn't matter what their damage is since good players simply evade them. Their speed and homing abilities must be improved.

[Vaderman]

arghmace, on 24 March 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

The main problem with LRM's is that they don't hit. Doesn't matter what their damage is since good players simply evade them. Their speed and homing abilities must be improved.

LoL.

A weapon system that allows you to remain in cover, allow others to target for you, and still do respectable damage while not getting hit.

Personally I think they should remove indirect fire altogether and force LRM builds to lock their own targets.

It's a lot harder, and carries a lot more risk, to do 250 damage with a non-LRM build any way you look at it.

[Ralgas]

Is anyone noticing you're not always getting atermis spiral?

Edit: cant reproduce it in testing grounds, but on my 6a with 2x lrm 20+art LOS detection seems wonky the last few matches i've played. Moar testing!!

Vaderman, on 24 March 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

LoL.

A weapon system that allows you to remain in cover, allow others to target for you, and still do respectable damage while not getting hit.

Personally I think they should remove indirect fire altogether and force LRM builds to lock their own targets.

It's a lot harder, and carries a lot more risk, to do 250 damage with a non-LRM build any way you look at it.

you try doing that and seeing how much actual dmg you do now Lol, only works with spotters being able to chat to you.

Edited by Ralgas, 24 March 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[arghmace]

Vaderman, on 24 March 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

A weapon system that allows you to remain in cover, allow others to target for you, and still do respectable damage while not getting hit.

In a team game it doesn't really matter if you get hit or your friend that spots for you. Either way your team gets hit. Now if at the same time you're pouring out missiles that just hit the ground behind any decently maneuvering pilot and in the off-case that they actually hit, do just moderate damage, you're simply gimping your team.

[Vaderman]

arghmace, on 24 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

In a team game it doesn't really matter if you get hit or your friend that spots for you. Either way your team gets hit. Now if at the same time you're pouring out missiles that just hit the ground behind any decently maneuvering pilot and in the off-case that they actually hit, do just moderate damage, you're simply gimping your team.

Strap on some lasers, ballistics and stuff and try to do the same damage while dodging fire, maneuvering, and getting hit.

Any weapon system that allows you to sit in the back, put your crosshair on a red box and push a button should not do much damage.

LRM's are a softening up weapon. Used effectively they are good at pinning down targets, slowing rushes and breaking up formations. They simply should not be the uber weapon they are.

[Vaderman]

Ralgas, on 24 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Is anyone noticing you're not always getting atermis spiral?

Edit: cant reproduce it in testing grounds, but on my 6a with 2x lrm 20+art LOS detection seems wonky the last few matches i've played. Moar testing!!



you try doing that and seeing how much actual dmg you do now Lol, only works with spotters being able to chat to you.

I have done it to see what it was like. There's nothing easier to pilot and nothing does more damage than an lrm boat.

Catch someone trying to rush you and you can beat an atlas into the dirt in 2 volleys.

Going back to TT rules an LRM 20 on average did about 11-12 damage on average I think, and that's if you could hit at all. to hit numbers were high as its a medium range weapon at best, and if you were using indirect fire you missed 90% of the time.

When you log into a game and nearly all the opposing mechs are launching LRMs, theres a reason.

Hit someone with lasers? skill. Hit someone with ballistics? skill. Hit someone with LRM's? not much skill involved other than making sure you have a good lock and the target isn't cowering in fear behind a building.

Edited by Vaderman, 24 March 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[arghmace]

Vaderman, on 24 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

Strap on some lasers, ballistics and stuff and try to do the same damage while dodging fire, maneuvering, and getting hit.

I do much better with ballistics and lasers than with LRM's that most of the time just hit the ground. I personally don't play 8vs8 but many on this forum have said that LRM's aren't used at all in high-level games. They just aren't any good when skilled players clash together. Surely they do nice damage when pugs go stand put in the middle of the field but is that a reason to nerf them unusable in high level game?

You see an enemy in 800 meters
1) Shoot with ER PPC and he takes 10 dmg instantly
2) Get a lock-on, shoot LRM's, wait for 8 seconds for them to hit - only to find out that they don't since the enemy moved.
Which is more efficient?

Edited by arghmace, 24 March 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[Vaderman]

arghmace, on 24 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I do much better with ballistics and lasers than with LRM's that most of the time just hit the ground. I personally don't play 8vs8 but many on this forum have said that LRM's aren't used at all in high-level games. They just aren't any good when skilled players clash together. Surely they do nice damage when pugs go stand put in the middle of the field but is that a reason to nerf them unusable in high level game?

You see an enemy in 800 meters
1) Shoot with ER PPC and he takes 10 dmg instantly
2) Get a lock-on, shoot LRM's, wait for 8 seconds for them to hit - only to find out that they don't since the enemy moved.
Which is more efficient?

Like I said LRMs should not be the huge damage dealing monstrosity they have been.

This doesn't make them useless. Making a mech or two hide in cover for 8 seconds has tactical advantages. Keeping mechs pinned down with the threat of LRM fire allows flanking and other tactics to work better.

The advantage of keeping snipers heads down and keeping the enemy in one area is valuable. It doesn't mean the easiest, longest range weapon in the game should do as much damage as an AC20 to the face.

[arghmace]

Vaderman, on 24 March 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

It doesn't mean the easiest, longest range weapon in the game should do as much damage as an AC20 to the face.

LRM isn't the longest range. ER PPC, Gauss, AC2 and even bigger AC's can comfortably shoot beyond 1km while LRM cannot. Anyway I'm not saying LRM needs to do a lot of damage. But it does need to hit more reliably. If practically any mech can evade missiles out in the open then something is wrong. Don't get me wrong, of course avoiding missiles must be possible, but right now it's just too easy. My stats say that 30% of missiles hit. On the other hand my lasers hit 90%. So in order to have balance, missiles should have triple base damage compared to lasers. Of course this math is too simplified but you get the idea. LRM's should hit better.

EDIT: Personally I rarely use LRM's but I know that when enemies shoot them at me from long ranges, I just laugh at them. They simply don't hit you if you move wisely. Waste of tonnage.

Edited by arghmace, 24 March 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[Vaderman]

Yes of course there are technically longer range weapons, but they don't lock onto targets, fly over buildings and follow them either. AC 2 has a great range but doesn't hit like an AC20, and neither should LRMS.

A 30-40% hit rate for a weapon that locks onto targets from spotters and fired in a volley sounds about right, even going back to the TT rules.

Your hit rate percentage comparison would only be accurate if all weapons allowed indirect fire. LRMS are a form of semi-homing artillery, of course the hit rates should be lower. If I could spend 2 seconds locking lasers on and watch them go over buildings to hit targets behind them then yeah.

You should not be able to stand back lobbing artillery into a melee with pinpoint precision doing the same damage as comparably rated energy and ballistic weapons, full stop.

Even SRM's and LBX does not do full damage unless you are 10m from your target. LRMS are scatter munitions, and longer the range, the more they should miss.

[arghmace]

Vaderman, on 24 March 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

If I could spend 2 seconds locking lasers on and watch them go over buildings to hit targets behind them then yeah.

If the ability to do this with lasers would mean that you have to get a lock, cannot shoot them straight and cannot shoot them at all within 180m or if an enemy ECM is near you, would the lasers be improved? No, they would be nerfed.

[Dibster]

Both LRM's and SRM's are woefully underpowered now. I'd just rather boat lasers at this point, and other people seem to be catching on to that as well.

[Vaderman]

arghmace, on 24 March 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

If the ability to do this with lasers would mean that you have to get a lock, cannot shoot them straight and cannot shoot them at all within 180m or if an enemy ECM is near you, would the lasers be improved? No, they would be nerfed.

You're picking at tiny pieces of my argument and obviously choosing to ignore the meaning you don't want to acknowledge.

My point is you can't compare indirect fire to direct fire weapons.

Theres a difference between hiding behind a hill pushing a button at a target that can't see you, and trying to hit a target with a direct fire weapon at long distances, while moving and getting shot back at.

If you're not hitting with LRMs you're using them wrong. Throwing LRMS at targets you can't see as soon as they blip onto your HUD, gonna miss. Shooting at people, like myself, who intentionally peek out of cover to draw LRM fire then duck under cover, is also going to cause you to miss.

LRMS are basically streak missles that have a high trajectory, and they are still very accurate even angling around cover to hit a target that just stepped behind it.

I would have no problem with LRM's that saturate an area versus this tightly packed, corner turning corkscrewing dime sized impact area things that they are.

There's a reason so many noobs load up with nothing but LRM's. They're the easiest weapon to use while keeping yourself out of the line of fire.

When you sneak up on an LRM mech boat pilot its kinda hilarious cause they usually can't hit you with their lasers and usually just run away till you core out their back armor.

How many mech builds let you do 1k damage? You'd be hard pressed to do that with non-LRM weaponry prior to the nerf, even with a splatcat.

[Lightfoot]

Ralgas, on 24 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Is anyone noticing you're not always getting atermis spiral?

Edit: cant reproduce it in testing grounds, but on my 6a with 2x lrm 20+art LOS detection seems wonky the last few matches i've played. Moar testing!!



you try doing that and seeing how much actual dmg you do now Lol, only works with spotters being able to chat to you.

Yes, I agree, no Artemis spiral so I assume that Artemis is removed by the Hotfix. That would explain why they are not killing anything (looks at Thontor) since the patch.

That's ok though. I am just pulling all Missiles from my configs. They are garbage now. I expect them to always be garbage, I was surprised to see them work a week ago, then they told me it was a Bug. Well of course.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Well, LRM users just need to think before they fire or god forbid, actually move into a position where they have unrestricted LOS to a target or use a spotter. They r absolutely effective under these circumstances. I don't see what the complaints are all about. U want to boat, go right ahead. Put all your eggs in one basket and enjoy limited success. Play a balanced build an you'll see that they r fine as is.