40 replies to this topic

[Sable Dove]

PPC boats are (sort of) impractical because if an enemy gets too close, your damage drops off dramatically. ERPPCs do not have minimum range, meaning that you can't flank an ERPPC boat to get close, because they deal full damage at point-blank. There is no strategy to counter ERPPCs. They have very long range, fast projectiles, high damage, and lack the balancing factor of minimum range.

I assume that the lack of minimum range is an oversight; if anything, the ERPPCs ought to have a slightly longer minimum range than regular PPCs. As it stands, they're just top-tier weapons. Hot, yes, but impossible to actually counter, because they have huge range, fast projectiles, high damage, and no minimum range.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Same goes for Gauss rifles, and they are not running hot.

[General Taskeen]

Well, they could just give the PPC an extra function (on/off key) with the Field Inhibitor.

Field Inhibitor Off - Full damage within 90m, risk damage to own Mech
Field Inhibitor On - (As it is now as it is now for regular PPC)

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 March 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Sybreed]

In short: No

ER PPC are furnaces strapped on your mech. Your third Alpha will likely shut you down so just try to dodge the shots if you're quick, or turn around to make different parts of your mech take the hits.

Edited by Sybreed, 20 March 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Cyke]

They'll be a completely non-viable option without that added feature.

Without the no-minimum range for ER PPCs, they would have no advantage over regular PPCs between 90-540m, but the huge disadvantage of massively increased heat.

I'm assuming you're referring to six-PPC boats, and those should be balanced in other ways (for example, putting slot limits on some of the individual hardpoints so that the small Energy Hardpoint holes on certain 'Mechs can't mount PPCs, and the tiny near-microscopic machine gun ports on some 'Mechs can't mount a Gauss or AC20, etc).

Personally run a 'Mech with only two ER PPCs, and if they lost their minimum range, I'd just junk them for regular PPCs.


Lastly, and I fully understand that this is no part of the argument whatsoever, it's worth stating that in BattleTech fiction/tabletop/stories/fluff/universe/whatever, ER PPCs have no minimum range either.

[Deathlike]

PPCs min range is literally the range of the mg (and as we know, the mg is practically a complete joke). So, your first problem is allowing a mech get within that range... usually some sort of light or med.

Once you are in such a range, the weapon itself is actually more difficult to shoot with when the light mech twists and turns in and around you.

Complaining that this is a problem is silly, especially when the alternative generates more heat... which is a lot more undesirable (ER weapons are simply more effective at longer ranges, which isn't the case here). You don't want to overheat to a Flamer either (another good joke weapon).

Anyways, please find an alternative way of working around this, like, maybe using a large pulse laser instead of an erppc to fight your short range/brawler battles.

[Zordicron]

OP is flawed logic I think. The heat output difference between ERPPC and PPC is huge. And the dmg drop off below minimum for PPC is also huge.

The "counter" to PPC boats is the same as any other energy weapon, and maybe easier to dodge them to boot. PPC and ERPPC IMO is one of the few weapon systems they have just right at the moment.

[focuspark]

General Taskeen, on 10 March 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Well, they could just give the PPC an extra function (on/off key) with the Field Inhibitor.

Field Inhibitor Off - Full damage within 90m, risk damage to own Mech
Field Inhibitor On - (As it is now as it is now for regular PPC)

It's OFF now. Damage degrades to zero as range is reduced from 90m to 0.

[Cyke]

For regular PPCs, I say the current linear damage decrease starting at 90m works a lot better for an action game, compared to the lore/TT risk of PPC detonation (similar to an ammo explosion!) when you shoot at a target inside 90m.
Using randomized odds for an event this catastrophic (permanent weapon loss, possible component loss, possible 'Mech loss, all not due to enemy fire) has no place in a real-time action game.
That's aside the point of this thread though. I think we've established that the significant extra heat that ER PPCs generate (compared to regular PPCs) is enough of a trade off to make the ER version's no-minimum feature necessary, lest the ER version become completely outmoded in MWO's metagame.

Edited by Cyke, 10 March 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Voyager I]

Their drawback is their incredible heat generation, which limits their ability to put out sustained damage in a fight and makes them enormous liabilities in any sort of high-pressure situation where you don't have time to cool down (like, say, somebody getting close to you). They work in a brawl, sure, but they're literally the least-efficient close range weapon in the game short of the ones that simply do not function. Anything actually designed to fight at close range will work you over.

[Zyllos]

Weapon convergence is the issue, not ERPPCs (or any other weapon system).

[Khobai]

ERPPCS should not have minimum ranges.

Gauss Rifles should.

[Corvus Antaka]

PPC should not have a min range, erppc should. not tt, yes, game balanced, yes.

[Khobai]

Quote

PPC should not have a min range, erppc should. not tt, yes, game balanced, yes.

That would be stupid. PPCs would be outright better than ERPPCs if they had no min range. Because they generate considerably less heat, for the same damage, and only slightly less range. The entire reason PPCs have a min range is to make ERPPCs more appealing.

And Gauss should have a minimum range instead of having 3 health. Giving gauss 3 health was a terrible balancing decision. Gauss has a min range in tabletop so its not far-fetched to give it a min range in MWO as well.

Edited by Khobai, 10 March 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Cyke]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 March 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

PPC should not have a min range, erppc should. not tt, yes, game balanced, yes.

To be fair, this makes perfect sense if they both generate the same amount of heat.

However, this is breaking off from TT in two separate ways then, to come to a different balanced result.

Better we just follow the TT and still have it balanced:
- ER PPCs have no minimum range, PPCs do
- ER PPCs generate more significantly more heat than PPCs
This is the way it's currently implemented.

[MuadXDib]

not sure you understand how this is supposed to work

[Roland]

Sable Dove, on 10 March 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

There is no strategy to counter ERPPCs.

Perhaps you have not fully explored your strategic options.

Sable Dove, on 10 March 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

I assume that the lack of minimum range is an oversight;

You are incorrect.

[Benyamin]

I've ran 4 ERPPCs in a K2. Sure, it can hit hard at any range, but 1 alpha strike puts me at 60% heat. If I risk it and fire a second alpha, I'm shut down for a few seconds. Try to override, and I've just killed myself.

I don't think there's any problem with the trade off of higher heat for no minimum range. As for countering PPCs, they aren't that hard to avoid if you're in a maneuverable mech, but if you're in something heavier, it could be an issue.

[Corvus Antaka]

Cyke, on 11 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

To be fair, this makes perfect sense if they both generate the same amount of heat.

However, this is breaking off from TT in two separate ways then, to come to a different balanced result.

Better we just follow the TT and still have it balanced:
- ER PPCs have no minimum range, PPCs do
- ER PPCs generate more significantly more heat than PPCs
This is the way it's currently implemented.

Yeah the way it is balanced now is nice, but I never use PPC over ERPPC because inbetween min range and half the max range the 3 heat is completely negligable for consistent damage output. I suppose if you stack 3-4 it might be worth it.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 11 March 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Cyke]

Well, the PPC actually has 2/3rd the optimal range, and you can still hit beyond that for a loss of 1 damage every additional 54m beyond 540m. Due to the projectile travel time it can get a bit difficult to hit fast moving targets out to 810m anyway.

You're right though, the PPC's reduced heat only really matters when mounting more than 2 of them.

The original TT heat values were 10 for PPC and 15 for ER PPC, but they readjusted it to 8 and 11 because then nobody used both types of PPCs; too hard to hit with them compared to lasers. Their projectile speed used to be only 1200m/sec, but they've raised it to 2000m/sec.
Maybe they should raise the projectile velocity even more (maybe 2500 or 3000m/sec) and bump the heat back up? Dunno.

Edited by Cyke, 11 March 2013 - 09:29 AM.