849 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

Tarman, on 20 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

It is either yet another design backpedal or it is some serious poosticking by someone who does not understand how little faith people have in this company on a long-term basis. Both of these options are bad options. Even as a complete fabrication, the amount of stir-up should show PGI how thin their ice is.

I would say the ice they are on is thinner than a single bit of data--as in, MAYBE a hydrogen atom thin?

[Tarman]

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

I am pointing out that by 3050 "something" would likely give the mech pilot a larger range of view than we have here. At the same time I am saying 3rd person viewwould compensate for the loss of sense of surroundings inherent in FPS games. This is why alot of them include the feature. From there I will say it is my opinion this wouldgreatly improve the individual playing experience for everyone, and will in all likelihood draw in a larger player base, which would include those who left or never came due to teh lack of third person view.

Third person view is in all the mech games, and this one will be no exception. If anything killed the previous mech titles I would imagine it had alot more to do with the toxicity evidenced in these forums, than it did the inclusion of third person view.

If you'd actually played in those games you would know that your imagination is wrong. The games died because they were a combat-game joke. Poptarting became THE tactic, based on the ability to see around corners and over hills; subsequently overused by tryhards till real players either split servers to play 1PV or abandoned the game in droves.



The other games also all started as single player games that had 3PV included from the get-go. Which is something the designers of THIS game specifically stated they would avoid because of the ridiculous issues it created in those multiplayer matches.

[M4rtyr]

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

I am pointing out that by 3050 "something" would likely give the mech pilot a larger range of view than we have here.

What do people not get about a tactical radar. Hell ground troops would give anything for something like that.

[Gaan Cathal]

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

I am pointing out that by 3050 "something" would likely give the mech pilot a larger range of view than we have here. At the same time I am saying 3rd person viewwould compensate for the loss of sense of surroundings inherent in FPS games. This is why alot of them include the feature. From there I will say it is my opinion this wouldgreatly improve the individual playing experience for everyone, and will in all likelihood draw in a larger player base, which would include those who left or never came due to teh lack of third person view.

Radar! Improve Radar. Make BAP improve Radar. Whatever, there are plenty of solutions that don't obsolete the most popular mode for playing the game.

And, for the record, " in FPS games. This is why alot of them include the feature." is inaccurate. Very few shooters include 3POV, and the vast majority that do are designed from the ground up to be 3POV shooters, and lack a FPS option.

[Ryvucz]

The world is going to end!

[I am]

Gaan Cathal, on 20 March 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

[/size]
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Honestly? Not exactly convincing.


[/size]

A: 90m lasers. Your realism is invalid.
B: Radar, that's what it's for. If we need more peripheral awareness, it should come through that (maybe make BAP worth a damn).
C: You loose that close-personal sense in an FPS yes (not that you'd have that in a vehicle) but you also loose full body motion, affecting your ability to escape detection. It's swings and roundabouts on that front until full-immersion VR.
D: Poptarts. Being able to unhook your mech from a lampost is not as important as keeping the game viable, and 3POV will make the game a desert cross only by the occasional newbie, who will make it twenty paces before a poptart lines him up around a building and jumps to smack out his cockpit. That will be the game. It will be ****.

If I know you cant see behind you, and am near you and not yet detected, I'll exploit that fact by attacking you from behind. Until I open fire, it is unknown that I am there. I have exploited your lack of peripheral vision. Which was a point I used to explin why I think, my opinion, on what it is these long gone closed beta testers were frustrated by. The ones that left when 3rd person was decided against initially.

A. So because not everything is realistic, nothing should be? Solid thinking really. :/ You want us to have only one type of laser too?

B. Considering most things that get behind me have ecm, or are not spotted, radar is moot.

C. When my 100 ton mech backs into another hundred ton mech I dont know its there (could be a wall), there is no sense of it. Absent the ability to code in realism to that degree, 3rd person lends to a more realiztic alternative than the present game.

D. More predictions of the 3rd person future, full of doom and gloom, presented as absolute certainty?

[Vassago Rain]

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

I am pointing out that by 3050 "something" would likely give the mech pilot a larger range of view than we have here. At the same time I am saying 3rd person viewwould compensate for the loss of sense of surroundings inherent in FPS games. This is why alot of them include the feature. From there I will say it is my opinion this wouldgreatly improve the individual playing experience for everyone, and will in all likelihood draw in a larger player base, which would include those who left or never came due to teh lack of third person view.

Third person view is in all the mech games, and this one will be no exception. If anything killed the previous mech titles I would imagine it had alot more to do with the toxicity evidenced in these forums, than it did the inclusion of third person view.

FPS games don't have third person view. That's why they're...first person shooters. You know?

Hitman isn't an FPS. It's more of a puzzle game. Battlefield and CoD will feature third person for some vehicles, but sometimes, they don't. It varies from generation to generation. You think you can press a button and go third person in the latest battlefield, when you're running around with your soldier? Protip: you can't.

Third person is what killed old MW games. It always comes down to abusing certain weapons, in combination with the magic ability to see around and over hills with third person, and then you usually jump jet to kill people.

You don't know what you're talking about. PGI doesn't, either. Maybe you're the audience they deserve? I don't think you'll appreciate it when they keep lying to you, though.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 20 March 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

the saddest part on the radar thing? they removed it because they think it is more tactical to NOT have it, but feel free to spend an obscene about of XP to get something that is factory stock. It is like <now a days at least> buying a car and being told: it is safer to NOT have air bags, but, give us xtra money and we will install some for you....

[Krellek]

[DirePhoenix]

valkyrie, on 20 March 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Hey look, it's one of those rare times where MWO SHOULD crib from the WoT playbook. Offer new players a semi-scripted tutorial. Give them 500,000CB for completing it. Explain in no uncertain terms that your torso moves independently of your legs in said tutorial, amongst other things. Bam, DONE.

Much less coding-intensive, and significantly less likely to make your entire userbase march out to your offices with torches and pitchforks (though they're in Canada, so polite signage and strongly worded essays are more likely).

I guarantee you that as soon as they do that, more people like this Twitter guy in the OP will be giving feedback using that as justification for "why not" just have 3rd person in the regular game as well.

[Mazzyplz]

this is an accurate representation of the day 3rd person view is introduced:

[The Cheese]

Question, and I'm just throwing this out there... How would people feel about a 3rd person view that works like this (technical feasibility aside)...

The floating camera is the player's point of view (obviously). They can see, for example, the terrain on the other side of the crest of a hill that they're up against. We've got the tactical and mini maps already, so they're not gaining access to any new information here.

However, they don't see everything that's over the hill. There's a 'fog of war' effect (for lack of a better term). If there's a mech over that crest, it doesn't appear to the player until the cockpit of their mech gets a line of sight view of that other mech.

Basically, the idea is that the field of view from the mech's cockpit still defines what the player can see. If you couldn't see the object from the cockpit, you can't see it from the floating camera. When you can see it from the cockpit's line of sight, you can see it from the 3rd person cam.

This way, players could get their 3rd person control, but wouldn't actually get any more situational information than a 1st person player.

[Rejarial Galatan]

they did that to this a while back. the shark thing.

as to the post directly above this?

no. no. no.

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 20 March 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[I am]

Vassago Rain, on 20 March 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

FPS games don't have third person view. That's why they're...first person shooters. You know?

Hitman isn't an FPS. It's more of a puzzle game. Battlefield and CoD will feature third person for some vehicles, but sometimes, they don't. It varies from generation to generation. You think you can press a button and go third person in the latest battlefield, when you're running around with your soldier? Protip: you can't.

Third person is what killed old MW games. It always comes down to abusing certain weapons, in combination with the magic ability to see around and over hills with third person, and then you usually jump jet to kill people.

You don't know what you're talking about. PGI doesn't, either. Maybe you're the audience they deserve? I don't think you'll appreciate it when they keep lying to you, though.

If they deliver us a fun and balanced game, true to their initial ambitions or not, I and alot of future MWO gamers will appreciate it. Third person to me, is just a tool to grow the player base. Third person for them, new players, is a reason to enjoy the game more. For everyone, its a reason to spam cool camos. Everyone wins.

Dont tell me we dont have that same exploiting today.

4 mans pug farming, as the 8 man queue lays empty? Is this a dead issue?

Ravens? Probably not settled either, and yet many players spam them with pride.

DDC Missle boats? Pretty awesome, I have one. Not balanced in the slightest but it sure is fun to score 1200 dmg!

Splat cats? Nothing wrong there right?

There will always be exploiting. If anything, I see 3rd person as a way to give everyone a better fighting chance versus these other, imbalanced challenges. You yourself are a proponent of using the best weapons available right? Good builds? Things of that sort?

You say 3rd person leads to the abuse of weapons?

SRM6, LRM15, SSRM2... We have weapon abuse today. This is what I mean by third person didnt kill the MW franchise.

The players did. And they are doing it again, right now. You can add to that, and be part of the problem, or take a different route.

[von Pilsner]

Sadly, I think that 3pv = no more money from me...

[M4rtyr]

The Cheese, on 20 March 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

Question, and I'm just throwing this out there... How would people feel about a 3rd person view that works like this (technical feasibility aside)...

The floating camera is the player's point of view (obviously). They can see, for example, the terrain on the other side of the crest of a hill that they're up against. We've got the tactical and mini maps already, so they're not gaining access to any new information here.

However, they don't see everything that's over the hill. There's a 'fog of war' effect (for lack of a better term). If there's a mech over that crest, it doesn't appear to the player until the cockpit of their mech gets a line of sight view of that other mech.

Basically, the idea is that the field of view from the mech's cockpit still defines what the player can see. If you couldn't see the object from the cockpit, you can't see it from the floating camera. When you can see it from the cockpit's line of sight, you can see it from the 3rd person cam.

This way, players could get their 3rd person control, but wouldn't actually get any more situational information than a 1st person player.

Meh, maybe..

First problem with that is its even more work and wasted resouces the a basic 3rd person.

But I'm thinking that might tax the engine... or maybe not since it woundn't have to render those 'hidden' part.

Doubt they would have thought that far ahead though, just rather have work in CW then this even if it did work without advantage.

[The Cheese]

Again, an official word would be nice. For all we know, people are foaming at the mouth over nothing. The tweet really was pretty vague...

M4rtyr, on 20 March 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

First problem with that is its even more work and wasted resouces the a basic 3rd person.

But I'm thinking that might tax the engine... or maybe not since it woundn't have to render those 'hidden' part.

Yeah, that's why I said "technical feasibility aside". I also have a feeling it'd really try the limits of the engine.

Edited by The Cheese, 20 March 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

The Cheese, on 20 March 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Again, an official word would be nice. For all we know, people are foaming at the mouth over nothing. The tweet really was pretty vague...

or we are foaming at the mouth with good reason. but, yeah, an official word to end this all, one way or the other would be nice.

[Gaan Cathal]

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

If I know you cant see behind you, and am near you and not yet detected, I'll exploit that fact by attacking you from behind. Until I open fire, it is unknown that I am there. I have exploited your lack of peripheral vision. Which was a point I used to explin why I think, my opinion, on what it is these long gone closed beta testers were frustrated by. The ones that left when 3rd person was decided against initially.

They left because they got frustrated over being ambushed in a game that advertised itself as a 'thinky-tactical shooter'?

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

A. So because not everything is realistic, nothing should be? Solid thinking really. :/ You want us to have only one type of laser too?

Nothing is realistic, was more my point.

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

B. Considering most things that get behind me have ecm, or are not spotted, radar is moot.

So make BAP do it's job and give you untargetted hostile radar within X meters. Doesn't help with ECM of course, but that needs tuning on it's own.

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

C. When my 100 ton mech backs into another hundred ton mech I dont know its there (could be a wall), there is no sense of it. Absent the ability to code in realism to that degree, 3rd person lends to a more realiztic alternative than the present game.

Your teammate filling TeamChat with expletives should take care of that. Never mind that, in reality, people do back vehicles into things, and won't magically know what unless they -look-.

I am, on 20 March 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

D. More predictions of the 3rd person future, full of doom and gloom, presented as absolute certainty?

Extrapolations from the third person past. In general terms, no-one has ever managed to devise a system whereby third-person does not give advantage over first-person. PGI are not, and I doubt even their biggest supporters would claim this, a revolutionary development house. I highly doubt they'll have invented something that's escaped everyone else all these years. As a result, anyone wishing to perform adequately in a match will be forced into 3POV. And while I'm sure there are lots of people who want to play in 3POV, I'm equally sure there are far more who want to play in FPS. And you can't have both.

In the specific, prior mechwarrior games with 3POV always boiled down to poptarting. Always. It's a design inevitability inherent in the combination of 3POV, sniping weapons and vertical-motion jumpjets.

I'm not normally a fan of 'quoting the greats' but Einstein said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

I predict doom and gloom around 3POV because that is what the past tells us will happen.

[xhrit]

Jonathan Paine, on 20 March 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

I think my next $60 or so might go to pledge Heavy Gear then. First consumables, now 3rd person. Great.

First coolant flush, then making my raven get legged every match, then 3rd person.

Every patch this game gets more like Mechwarrior 4.