Why is anyone even bothering to use real world comparisons to MW/BT? There are 0 weapons in BT that make any sense in comparison to the RL counterparts (if they have one), weapons have arbitrary ranges, weapons are much heavier than they should be (ballistics), you can somehow reload weapons mounted in your chest and arms from ammo stores in your feet, and the mechs... the mechs themselves are designed in such a fashion that they would ripped apart in seconds on a modern battlefield.
I don't care if a shaped charge is a shaped charge, BT/MW is space magic and makes about that much sense.
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Why Do Missiles Have Splash Damage At All?
Started by Radko, Mar 21 2013 10:06 AM
171 replies to this topic
#101
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- The Bludgeon
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:20 PM
#102
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:34 PM
Livewyr, on 21 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:
Why yes..
Because explosions are pinpoint..
Because explosions are pinpoint..
Shaped charges broheim.
but also because realism can go take a hike.
#103
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:07 PM
The salvo spread for LRM missiles gives the lack of pinpoint damage needed. It would seem logical that not all missiles should even hit at long range. Artemis should tighten up the grouping, but not to the extent that larger launchers should have all missiles hit one section, at least over say 350m. I dont think that this would be so vital for LRM5s and 10s, which are often used in ones or twos and could be made a little more viable.
I just don't see why they have to have "splash" damage - there are enough problems with balancing as it is.
The same would apply to SRMs.
If people really want to do something about "boating" (which is perfectly valid and canon for missiles) then why don't they apply some sort of "cone of fire" to grouped launchers. Said "cone" increasing with number of launchers "boated", after all, no one says "I must be able to hit to the pixel where I aim" with missiles.
I just don't see why they have to have "splash" damage - there are enough problems with balancing as it is.
The same would apply to SRMs.
If people really want to do something about "boating" (which is perfectly valid and canon for missiles) then why don't they apply some sort of "cone of fire" to grouped launchers. Said "cone" increasing with number of launchers "boated", after all, no one says "I must be able to hit to the pixel where I aim" with missiles.
#104
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:11 PM
Neekoli, on 21 March 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:
find me a stable, balanced explosive and I will deem you a god....
the very idea of that comment blows my mind...
so what you're asking for is long range lock-on ballistics?
Splash damage needs to be "fixed" not "removed"
Like Semtex or C4.
Tice Daurus, on 21 March 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:
http://youtu.be/M1kAmL1adH0
Just thought it would be fun to post this here since we're talking about missiles and splash damage. Still want to stand next to the tank now?
(And yes, I understand the Javelin missile is probably a more heavier and more powerful missile altogether, but it's somewhat comparable)
Just thought it would be fun to post this here since we're talking about missiles and splash damage. Still want to stand next to the tank now?
(And yes, I understand the Javelin missile is probably a more heavier and more powerful missile altogether, but it's somewhat comparable)
Stand next to that tank as a human being, no. Sit in a tank or mech next to that tank, yep no problem. Explosive force and shrapnel are damn dangerous to infantry, but more of a distraction to armored vehicles which a mech is, just one that walks instead of rolling along on wheels or treads.
Ok for consideration, the Marauder carries an AC/5 that shoots a 3 round burst of 120mm AP rounds (described in fluff as Depleted Uranium). Now in TT pretty much every single mech can take that shot to any location, even the head, and just keep on trucking (can't think of a mech that has less than 5 armor to the head in TT) with no loss of capability. Now if a SRM-6 hits a mech and say all 6 missiles hit, you have 2 points of damage done to 6 seperate locations. Again, unless that mech has been previously damaged, it just goes on fighting like it doesn't care. Mechs are evidently tough enough to shrug off damage that would devastate most modern AFV's, so splash damage doesn't seem to make much sense.
#105
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:17 PM
Why was splash in this game in the first place? If we're using actual physics lasers should cause explosions, autocanons should cause explosions (though smaller than the lasers) and the missile explosions should be large enough to take out an entire mech with one missile.
Stop trying to use real world physics to justify why shooting 20 GIANT MISSILES at something should or shouldn't cause splash damage. First of all those missiles don't even fit in the launcher, secondly you put the ammo for it in your foot, thirdly you hit him with 20 of them and he's not a pair of smoldering feet in a giant crater, fourthly you just shot a giant walking robot man with constantly bent elbows, fifthly he can see you through his windshield on his giant robot head, sixthly splash damage only makes sense when weapon damage and gameplay utilize it and they don't here.
Just stop. Stop. Seriously stop.
Stop trying to use real world physics to justify why shooting 20 GIANT MISSILES at something should or shouldn't cause splash damage. First of all those missiles don't even fit in the launcher, secondly you put the ammo for it in your foot, thirdly you hit him with 20 of them and he's not a pair of smoldering feet in a giant crater, fourthly you just shot a giant walking robot man with constantly bent elbows, fifthly he can see you through his windshield on his giant robot head, sixthly splash damage only makes sense when weapon damage and gameplay utilize it and they don't here.
Just stop. Stop. Seriously stop.
#106
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:27 PM
Oh nothing in Battletech as ever been in the slightest realistic in any way shape or form.
So lets get off the real world explosions, its a stupid *** arguement to begin with but its just going around in circles.
The basics of it are the devs can balance the weapons without splash damage, having splash damage is obviously just making things wore. Hopefullt he hotfix is an early removal of the splash damage and we can see how the game is without it. since its so broke obviously it would be much better. But if the devs would just forget about it then that means they wouldn't have to waste all this time and effort working on something thats not needed nor wanted by the majority of voters.
So I'd rather have the devs working on other balance thats not -OPTIONAL- and get things right.
So lets get off the real world explosions, its a stupid *** arguement to begin with but its just going around in circles.
The basics of it are the devs can balance the weapons without splash damage, having splash damage is obviously just making things wore. Hopefullt he hotfix is an early removal of the splash damage and we can see how the game is without it. since its so broke obviously it would be much better. But if the devs would just forget about it then that means they wouldn't have to waste all this time and effort working on something thats not needed nor wanted by the majority of voters.
So I'd rather have the devs working on other balance thats not -OPTIONAL- and get things right.
#107
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:34 PM
Realism -
Reading through the TROs, you'll discover something called BAR, or Barrier rating. For a long time, the Large Laser was considered the peak of military armament, because it could score a penetrating hit on BAR 8 armor, which was the peak of armor development during the very early years of the Star League. However, when what is now called Standard Armor was developed, no weapon could penetrate it, and the armor itself had to be ablated away. It was vulnerable to infantry fire (a rifleman can score 1 damage, actually), but it was completely protective until totally structurally compromised, except under extreme circumstances (a critical hit). Weapon development and deployment then changed from single gun tanks to things like multiple missile racks, numerous barreled autocannons, and yes, the use of machineguns for anti-vehicle work.
So, weapons that inflict splash damage are able to inflict more trauma on a 'mechs armor and cause more armor to ablate.
Gameplay -
So LRMs aren't useless against mechs with a certain speed threshold.
Reading through the TROs, you'll discover something called BAR, or Barrier rating. For a long time, the Large Laser was considered the peak of military armament, because it could score a penetrating hit on BAR 8 armor, which was the peak of armor development during the very early years of the Star League. However, when what is now called Standard Armor was developed, no weapon could penetrate it, and the armor itself had to be ablated away. It was vulnerable to infantry fire (a rifleman can score 1 damage, actually), but it was completely protective until totally structurally compromised, except under extreme circumstances (a critical hit). Weapon development and deployment then changed from single gun tanks to things like multiple missile racks, numerous barreled autocannons, and yes, the use of machineguns for anti-vehicle work.
So, weapons that inflict splash damage are able to inflict more trauma on a 'mechs armor and cause more armor to ablate.
Gameplay -
So LRMs aren't useless against mechs with a certain speed threshold.
#108
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:35 PM
GreyGriffin, on 21 March 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:
Realism -
Reading through the TROs, you'll discover something called BAR, or Barrier rating. For a long time, the Large Laser was considered the peak of military armament, because it could score a penetrating hit on BAR 8 armor, which was the peak of armor development during the very early years of the Star League. However, when what is now called Standard Armor was developed, no weapon could penetrate it, and the armor itself had to be ablated away. It was vulnerable to infantry fire (a rifleman can score 1 damage, actually), but it was completely protective until totally structurally compromised, except under extreme circumstances (a critical hit). Weapon development and deployment then changed from single gun tanks to things like multiple missile racks, numerous barreled autocannons, and yes, the use of machineguns for anti-vehicle work.
So, weapons that inflict splash damage are able to inflict more trauma on a 'mechs armor and cause more armor to ablate.
Gameplay -
So LRMs aren't useless against mechs with a certain speed threshold.
Reading through the TROs, you'll discover something called BAR, or Barrier rating. For a long time, the Large Laser was considered the peak of military armament, because it could score a penetrating hit on BAR 8 armor, which was the peak of armor development during the very early years of the Star League. However, when what is now called Standard Armor was developed, no weapon could penetrate it, and the armor itself had to be ablated away. It was vulnerable to infantry fire (a rifleman can score 1 damage, actually), but it was completely protective until totally structurally compromised, except under extreme circumstances (a critical hit). Weapon development and deployment then changed from single gun tanks to things like multiple missile racks, numerous barreled autocannons, and yes, the use of machineguns for anti-vehicle work.
So, weapons that inflict splash damage are able to inflict more trauma on a 'mechs armor and cause more armor to ablate.
Gameplay -
So LRMs aren't useless against mechs with a certain speed threshold.
Realism -
Ablative armor is fantasy moon magic.
Gameplay -
The splash damage is way, way too small to help hit a mech that the missile didn't collide with, therefore it does nothing to help you catch fast mechs.
Edited by Shumabot, 21 March 2013 - 02:36 PM.
#109
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:35 PM
Are missiles broke? Well depending on ones perspective the answer can go either way but in general terms everything is broke and being tweaked constantly in order to maintain a certain "balance".
Should missiles do splash? Well whether the explosive charge is akin to a grenade or nuke there's splash damage in one shape or form so in a game attempting to recreate that...why not.
Yeah it sucks, they tweaked the wrong way and missile lovers are having a blast (hmm to pun or not to pun). Look at what happened when ECM came out. "Whaaaaaaa screw LRM's can't hit anything!" and now that we see fewer ECM mechs and have counter measures against them when we do should we really whine that missiles are overpowered when we ourselves are standing out in the open allowing it to happen 'cause we're so used to being able to due to ECM? Wah-wah, get over it. Learn some tactics, like stick and move, duck and cover, if they can't see me they can't hit me. It works wonders. I roll multiple mechs with no AMS (in fact I've given up putting it on and wasting space) and generally end up with no ECM and still come out fairing very well to awesome in matches; I even <shock> survive.
Should missiles do splash? Well whether the explosive charge is akin to a grenade or nuke there's splash damage in one shape or form so in a game attempting to recreate that...why not.
Yeah it sucks, they tweaked the wrong way and missile lovers are having a blast (hmm to pun or not to pun). Look at what happened when ECM came out. "Whaaaaaaa screw LRM's can't hit anything!" and now that we see fewer ECM mechs and have counter measures against them when we do should we really whine that missiles are overpowered when we ourselves are standing out in the open allowing it to happen 'cause we're so used to being able to due to ECM? Wah-wah, get over it. Learn some tactics, like stick and move, duck and cover, if they can't see me they can't hit me. It works wonders. I roll multiple mechs with no AMS (in fact I've given up putting it on and wasting space) and generally end up with no ECM and still come out fairing very well to awesome in matches; I even <shock> survive.
#110
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:43 PM
Und3rSc0re, on 21 March 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:
Wow this thread is ridiculous, splash mechanic is not needed since not only does it put more strain on server to calculate what the splash hits but the missiles already do damage to multiple parts anyway. Instead of putting in a mediocre .50 damage to whatever it splashes why not just bump up missile damage to 3.00 and be done with it.
because then people would cry even more...on second though yes I want 3 Dmg/missile lurms
#111
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:45 PM
Thanos, on 21 March 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:
Are missiles broke? Well depending on ones perspective the answer can go either way but in general terms everything is broke and being tweaked constantly in order to maintain a certain "balance".
Should missiles do splash? Well whether the explosive charge is akin to a grenade or nuke there's splash damage in one shape or form so in a game attempting to recreate that...why not.
Yeah it sucks, they tweaked the wrong way and missile lovers are having a blast (hmm to pun or not to pun). Look at what happened when ECM came out. "Whaaaaaaa screw LRM's can't hit anything!" and now that we see fewer ECM mechs and have counter measures against them when we do should we really whine that missiles are overpowered when we ourselves are standing out in the open allowing it to happen 'cause we're so used to being able to due to ECM? Wah-wah, get over it. Learn some tactics, like stick and move, duck and cover, if they can't see me they can't hit me. It works wonders. I roll multiple mechs with no AMS (in fact I've given up putting it on and wasting space) and generally end up with no ECM and still come out fairing very well to awesome in matches; I even <shock> survive.
Should missiles do splash? Well whether the explosive charge is akin to a grenade or nuke there's splash damage in one shape or form so in a game attempting to recreate that...why not.
Yeah it sucks, they tweaked the wrong way and missile lovers are having a blast (hmm to pun or not to pun). Look at what happened when ECM came out. "Whaaaaaaa screw LRM's can't hit anything!" and now that we see fewer ECM mechs and have counter measures against them when we do should we really whine that missiles are overpowered when we ourselves are standing out in the open allowing it to happen 'cause we're so used to being able to due to ECM? Wah-wah, get over it. Learn some tactics, like stick and move, duck and cover, if they can't see me they can't hit me. It works wonders. I roll multiple mechs with no AMS (in fact I've given up putting it on and wasting space) and generally end up with no ECM and still come out fairing very well to awesome in matches; I even <shock> survive.
Part of the current bug is that LRMs will ghost through map geometry and still hit you. Stop pretending to be a pro player, you sound like you don't even play the game.
Omni 13, on 21 March 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:
because then people would cry even more...on second though yes I want 3 Dmg/missile lurms
Yeah, one LRM20 should totally do 3 times the damage an AC20 does despite weighing half as much, having 3 times the range and homing. This thread makes this forum look more insane than it normally does.
Edited by Shumabot, 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM.
#112
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:51 PM
Just make LRMs function like WW2 Katyusha rockets, that's probably a tech boost for the BT universe, but they fire their rockets, hope it lands near a target, if it does massive damage, if not enjoy the 5 minute reload.
REALISMS
REALISMS
Edited by Merky Merc, 21 March 2013 - 02:51 PM.
#113
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:52 PM
Merky Merc, on 21 March 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:
Just make LRMs function like WW2 Katyusha rockets, that's probably a tech boost for the BT universe, but they fire their rockets, hope it lands near a target, if it does massive damage, if not enjoy the 5 minute reload.
REALISMS
REALISMS
Nothing in battletech can shoot more than a few football fields. That would be hugely overpowered and would ensure that the entire IS was conquered in weeks.
Edited by Shumabot, 21 March 2013 - 02:52 PM.
#114
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:53 PM
I would think the spread off of the larger missile launchers could simulate splash damage, but in all fairness i could see how concussion and shrapnel could be an issue even if I don't personally agree with it.
#115
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:53 PM
Radko, on 21 March 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:
Why?
Without splash, LRMs and SRMs become as useless as the LB10X.
#116
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:54 PM
Shumabot, on 21 March 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:
Realism -
Ablative armor is fantasy moon magic.
So are the Kearny-Fuchida drive, jump jets, and for that matter five storey bipedal war machines. When in Rome, believe as the Romans. You have to accept the universe's rules to play in it. Otherwise, you're welcome to play World of Tanks and learn the joys of deflection angle and one hit kills from a thousand meters.
... that's not a direct dig. I play WoT and enjoy it, but it is a different game. We are playing in the BTU and we have to operate under the assumption that its underlying technology works the way it says it does. You can't say "Your technology works in a completely different way than it should, and as a consequence of the way I think it should work, it is wrong." I am sure there is a name for that logical fallacy, but I am late for D&D
Quote
Gameplay -
The splash damage is way, way too small to help hit a mech that the missile didn't collide with, therefore it does nothing to help you catch fast mechs.
The splash damage is way, way too small to help hit a mech that the missile didn't collide with, therefore it does nothing to help you catch fast mechs.
I have very often scored significant leg damage from splash against light mechs, especially at extreme ranges where my LRMs scatter quite widely.
#117
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:00 PM
Shumabot, on 21 March 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:
Nothing in battletech can shoot more than a few football fields. That would be hugely overpowered and would ensure that the entire IS was conquered in weeks.
Not if you have no idea where those bad boys are going to land.
PLUS REALISMS
#118
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:39 PM
Tincan Nightmare, on 21 March 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:
Like Semtex or C4.
Stand next to that tank as a human being, no. Sit in a tank or mech next to that tank, yep no problem. Explosive force and shrapnel are damn dangerous to infantry, but more of a distraction to armored vehicles which a mech is, just one that walks instead of rolling along on wheels or treads.
Ok for consideration, the Marauder carries an AC/5 that shoots a 3 round burst of 120mm AP rounds (described in fluff as Depleted Uranium). Now in TT pretty much every single mech can take that shot to any location, even the head, and just keep on trucking (can't think of a mech that has less than 5 armor to the head in TT) with no loss of capability. Now if a SRM-6 hits a mech and say all 6 missiles hit, you have 2 points of damage done to 6 seperate locations. Again, unless that mech has been previously damaged, it just goes on fighting like it doesn't care. Mechs are evidently tough enough to shrug off damage that would devastate most modern AFV's, so splash damage doesn't seem to make much sense.
Fine. Now say you are in a tank or a mech and standing next to that tank being hit by a Javelin Missile. Now can you tell me your mech or tank won't suffer damage? I don't think so.
#119
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:39 PM
Don't worry about it guys they just murdered LRMs GG all around back to brawlers/snipers only again.
#120
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:40 PM
Let me think about something. Are Missiles explodeable, hmmm... yes?
I guess the real question should be... are our missiles (SRMs or LRMs) going to be considered bullets or explosives?
I guess the real question should be... are our missiles (SRMs or LRMs) going to be considered bullets or explosives?
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