673 replies to this topic

[Delas Ting Usee]

Went online and played 5 games with my stalker LRM build - base on feel - well these gentlemen say pretty much what I feel.

ZeroMaestro, on 21 March 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

The right move, but a bit too much of a damage loss for LRMs.

From one extreme to the other.

Rixsaw, on 21 March 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Can we please have the Pre-Jagermech SRM and LRM's back?

That's what I'm talking about - LRM didn't need nerfing until the most recent patch.

[D1G17AL]

The other thing that I think everyone forgets is that Missiles are almost always a SUPPORT role weapon. You utilize them with the locks provided by your team more often than not. You are fighting with that team mate when you fire your missiles at them. You are providing support damage. That's your primary job.

No where did it say that you should be killing people with a pair of LRM-15's in 6 volleys. That is just way too overpowered.

While the damage right now may not be as high as it was yesterday/earlier today. It is almost in line with Pre-Jager patch. I think that it should stay here for a little bit. Let people ride it out and get a better feel for it.

Another solution would be to increase missile speeds by 20-30%. Thus enabling more missiles to reach a target and actually hit a moving target.

Edited by D1G17AL, 21 March 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

D1G17AL, on 21 March 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Another solution would be to increase missile speeds by 20-30%. Thus enabling more missiles to reach a target and actually hit a moving target.

This is what it needs if damage is to stay this low. Too few missiles connect on anything other than the worst players.

[Rahnu]

Stanton Langley, on 21 March 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Tested it by feel before reading this thread; had to hit the forums to find out how my missile damage for 8 tons of ammo from 2 x LRM-15 was 375 for a match. I don't mind a drop to damage per missile, but you need to buff the amount of missiles per ton accordingly. With double armor and .7 damage compared to tabletop, LRMs are extremely under-powered for their weight. Add in ammo weight, and it's simply ridiculous to try and bring missiles to the party.

FYI, most other weapons DID NOT get a damage boost to "compensate" for double armor. In fact, the whole point of double armor was to slow down the rate at which mechs get cored since everything fires three times faster. With splash, LRMs and SRMs are now far closer to the original TT versions in terms of raw damage output than ever before.

My biggest beef with the way LRMs were even before the Jagermech patch is simply that they are NOT supposed to be so incredibly effective when boated. They are supposed to be support weapons, weapons you use to deal easy damage to targets without having to aim while you close the distance, or to soften up targets from a distance while your teammates (who, I may remind you, are actually exposing themselves to the enemy) finish them off. Pre-Jagermech LRMs simply did too much damage, to the point where too many players would boat LRMs and nothing but LRMs because they could rely on them to finish off enemies before they could get within minimum range. Thank goodness that isn't the case anymore. SRMs were similarly OP, especially for their weight (nothing else could output as much damage per ton as pre-Jagermech SRMs).

Now that the damage is toned down, they can start making other tweaks like changing missile formations, increasing missile speed, and so on, changes that are really badly needed to make sure that missile weapons are useful in a large enough number of situations, as opposed to the LRMs and SRMs of the past that were ridiculously all-or-nothing: either your entire LRM barrage smacks the enemy dead in the core or they all miss; either you're shotgunning your SRMs directly into your enemy's chassis or they're spreading out across the whole thing - that's ****-poor gameplay, and is something that really needs to be addressed in full. LRMs should be able to actually land upon targets downrange, SRMs should be able to hit with decent accuracy all the way down to 270m, while NOT doing so much damage that getting hit by them spells utter doom for whoever is in the firing line.

For now, missile weapons are probably going to see a period of non-use while PGI continues to figure out what to do next with them. That's a far better situation than the game being LRMWarrior Online, with the occasional splatcat ruining your day.

[ICEFANG13]

What defines support weapons? When you pack on say 30 tons, why does that have to be support? When they buffed TAG foolishly to become a LRM boat tool, and Artemis works with LOS, why is this a support weapon?

Let me tell you about "support weapons", people choose weapons that deal damage. Are you telling me that machine guns and flamers are amazing support weapons? Mechs specialize in them and 8 mans bring them?

Calling something a support weapon is like saying its ok to be bad, its like you say, "I know its bad, but its ok, because of X".

A/C-2s aren't designed for damage, just support weapons, they need to be nerfed 1/20 to TT values.

We have 26 different weapons (including LRM5 to 10 etc), and you may think the damage is fine, and I don't think it is, but that aside, no one should ever say what is being said.

Its a support weapon, it can suck because its not supposed to get kills.

I'm not packing (well actually I hate LRMs, so I never use them but) 30 tons of stuff to "support". I'm not bringing a mech that has no ability to defend itself, I'm not a support mech, and NO ONE should have to be.

[Zyllos]

Wow...I actually got to try the new LRMs on my 2 Treb chassis.

Ya, I think I can agree that LRMs are dealing a bit too little damage. And the tracking feels off, unless this was a change to focus more on using NARC, TAG, and Artemis, which then I think it is good. But NARC still needs some changes, 35 damage on top of a 12s timer or whatever is making it extremely useless/hard to use. TAG needs to be reduced back to 450m and always working, regardless of ECM.

But I think how much LRMs were scaled back was just too much. I think trying 1.0 damage with 50% splash would feel much better. I think with that damage amount, LRMs will feel threatening while not just blowing targets out of the water, unless of course you run into one of those 100+ LRM boats. I am just not sure how to balance those out with mechs that run a smaller number of LRMs unless your willing to limit the number equippable LRMs.

SRMs I have not had enough time to play with. I can not comment on them directly.

Edited by Zyllos, 21 March 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[Ravingdork]

As a medium brawler who often pilots and HBK-4SP, I can honestly say I HATE this NERF. Since this nerf my 4 medium laser/2 SRM 6 build hasn't been able to kill much of anything. I went from being a viable threat able to trash light mechs, threaten medium mechs, and hurt heavy mechs to "oh, I died again."

Instead of a medium brawler, I feel like a light support.

It does NOT FEEL good.

[BlackDrakon]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

To make the missile explosions/damage feel like they should and to keep the damage spread across a Mech, we kept the above mentioned splash damage work along with the following damage changes to missiles:

LRMs drop from 1.8 damage per missile to 0.7 damage per missile.
SRMs drop from 2.5 damage per missile to 1.5 damage per missile.

DO NOT HIT REPLY TO FREAKOUT YET!

It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

The community here is telling you, Missiles are not where they were supposed to be, I dont know how can u tell that the community feels its right as they are way 2 nerfed....

Lower the armor to closed beta standards, and keep the damage where it is...

[Filth Pig]

This game is not suppose to be balanced. The worst player out there is not suppose to keep up with the best player, and the worst weapon in the game is not suppose to feel "Balanced" to the best weapon in the game...

Dev's are so concerned about keeping everyone happy and not losing these newbs, who cant handle LRMS/SRMS that they are pushing some of the oldschool guys away from the game.
If you base every weapon in the game on "how does it feel" you are going to get a bunch of whiney ******* complaining that they are not balanced and what you will end up with is a bunch of weapons that are not really that much different, they all will suck.


This goes back to matchmaking as well.. just because pugs are getting ***** out there does not mean you should try and comfort them by making everything "fair"... slap em in the face and tell em to get better or die in a fire...

Edited by Filth Pig, 21 March 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Rahnu]

ICEFANG13, on 21 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

What defines support weapons? When you pack on say 30 tons, why does that have to be support? When they buffed TAG foolishly to become a LRM boat tool, and Artemis works with LOS, why is this a support weapon?

Let me tell you about "support weapons", people choose weapons that deal damage. Are you telling me that machine guns and flamers are amazing support weapons? Mechs specialize in them and 8 mans bring them?

Calling something a support weapon is like saying its ok to be bad, its like you say, "I know its bad, but its ok, because of X".

A/C-2s aren't designed for damage, just support weapons, they need to be nerfed 1/20 to TT values.

We have 26 different weapons (including LRM5 to 10 etc), and you may think the damage is fine, and I don't think it is, but that aside, no one should ever say what is being said.

Its a support weapon, it can suck because its not supposed to get kills.

I'm not packing (well actually I hate LRMs, so I never use them but) 30 tons of stuff to "support". I'm not bringing a mech that has no ability to defend itself, I'm not a support mech, and NO ONE should have to be.

LRMs should be support weapons because:

- They can be fired from cover
- They possess extremely long range
- They possess excellent ammo/ton
- They possess low heat generation

Machineguns and flamers, meanwhile, require obvious buffs because they serve no niche at the moment. Machineguns should be the low-tonnage damage option for lightweight ballistics-heavy mechs or even as a damage boost for mechs with tacked-on ballistics hardpoints (and there are a lot of these). Flamers should cause targets to always be on the verge of overheating and prevent them from firing their weapons anywhere near as quickly as they normally can.

LRMs in their current state are probably too weak, I will agree with that, but I don't believe increasing their damage again is the solution. Rather, I believe they should receive a missile velocity increase so that they can land on-target more frequently, further cementing their role as long-range support weapons that can block enemy vision (lots of explosions onscreen at once), disrupt enemy concentration (psychological effect of being hit by many missiles), and soften up large chunks of their chassis (splash damage). Their primary boon is their ability to deal large amounts of damage per salvo (something that hasn't changed even after this hefty nerf), but the fact that the damage is spread across the chassis instead of a particular component is their biggest downside outside of the slow missile velocity.

Filth Pig, on 21 March 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

This game is not suppose to be balanced. The worst player out there is not suppose to keep up with the best player, and the worst weapon in the game is not suppose to feel "Balanced" to the best weapon in the game...

Dev's are so concerned about keeping everyone happy and not losing these newbs, who cant handle LRMS/SRMS that they are pushing some of the oldschool guys away from the game.
If you base every weapon in the game on "how does it feel" you are going to get a bunch of whiney ******* complaining that they are not balanced and what you will end up with is a bunch of weapons that are not really that much different, they all will suck.


This goes back to matchmaking as well.. just because pugs are getting ***** out there does not mean you should try and comfort them by making everything "fair"... slap em in the face and tell em to get better or die in a fire...

Boy, you sure do live up to your name.

I wonder if you would have been content with playing LRMWarrior Online with the same handful of players until the game shuts down.

Edited by Zyrusticae, 21 March 2013 - 09:23 PM.

[ThePieMaker]

LRM's are pitiful now.
What should be done to balance LRM's is to increase their damage to 2.0, return their arc of descent to what is was back in August, and remove ALL splash damage. If people are looking directly at the LRM's flying at them they deserve to be hit mainly in the CT,RT,LT. People need to learn to turn their mech' and shield LRM's to balance out the damage done to them.
LRM's with Artemis and TAG should be tight enough to hit mainly the CT, RT,LT. If people spend the weight and crit space for Artemis and the extra effort to TAG their targets, they should be rewarded with very accurate LRM fire.
LRM's without Artemis/TAG should be much less accurate and therefore, spread out the damage to the whole mech.

Do almost the same for SRM/SSRM
Return their damage to 2.5 each, remove all splash damage.
The Spread on the SRM's will keep them from doing to centralized damage.
The random lock-on of the SSRM's will also keep them from doing centralized damage.

In my opinion, splash damage has no place in a MechWarrior title except for maybe like....idk....Arrow IV's?

[Fury356]

I really disagree with the new missle damage changes.

LRMs drop from 1.8 damage per missile to 0.7 damage per missile.
SRMs drop from 2.5 damage per missile to 1.5 damage per missile.

It should be about following BattleTech specs, such as the following damages for LRMs and SRMs:

LRMs will do 1 Damage per missle
SRMs will do 2 Damage per missle

These are the proper damage amounts according to BattleTech Wiki specs. I hope this gets corrected to the true damage specs for LRMs and SRMs weapons.

I hope the devs have looked at the BattleTech Wiki specs for these weapons also.

[Divine Decoy]

Severus Baggins Kerensky, on 21 March 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

"Except non of the non-missile weapon requires 5~6 seconds of keeping yourself exposed to ensure a hit."
WRONG. Lasers require you to be out in the open and always facing your opponent. It's worse for fast firing ballistics. LRMs don't require you to expose yourself to ensure a hit, you just need someone else to do it for you.

"None of the non-missile weapon requires you to keep the target in sight for 1~2 seconds before you can even use it effectively."
Lasers require you to have a full second aiming at the same spot to get the full damage. LRMs only need to roughly put the cursor on the target box. Granted, the penalty is not hitting a single component, except with Artemis.

"None of the non-missile weapon gives your opponent 5~6 seconds to hide."
Only if you fire from 1000m away. You're forgetting all of the good LRM users fire them from inside TAG range and most from 180-300m away. If you fire them from far away to give them time to move away and get behind cover, it's your own fault for firing from so far away, just the same as if you were to blame to recipient for not going into cover. Also, you do know that you can keep lock while moving, right? You don't have to stand there gaping at your missiles flying through the air.

"Non of the weapon becomes useless whenever one any enemy have an ECM (or have one mech with ECM next to you)."
None of the non-LRM weapons can be fired from behind cover.
None of the non-LRM weapons do full damage at 1000m range, without LOS.
In fact, ANY mech facehugging a PPC boat rendered it useless even WITHOUT ECM. So LRM is not the only one with the problem.

You seriously want to boat a single weapon with no downside of the other weapons while having advantages? If you apply all of those advantages to LRMs, what's the point of using anything else? This is why you LRMboats are so terrible: you go all-in with one strategy with no backup plan (like, "What if they got within my minimum range?", "What if they have CM?") and then just whined. You don't see Splatcats' complaining "SRM is too short ranged!".

Not to argue or rebuke all the mistakes in your response.... but A1 Cat is NOTHING BUT a HUGE MISSILE BOAT, so if it works ok in TT, and is a staple then it should be balanced enough to be used proper in game. Otherwise it's a waste (like Machine guns that are not being boated....)

What you got to say to that? PGI making iconic weapons/mechs in game only to have them useless?

Wiill any of this matter when Omni-clanner mechs come out and everyone either boats lasers or ballistics to counter the nerfed missiles?

thoughts on these and how pathetic Cats(and non-brawling trebs) are right now?
Its just like the fact that the AC20 Jager is better then the AC20 Cat,

[ICEFANG13]

Zyrusticae, on 21 March 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

LRMs should be support weapons because:

- They can be fired from cover
- They possess extremely long range
- They possess excellent ammo/ton
- They possess low heat generation

Machineguns and flamers, meanwhile, require obvious buffs because they serve no niche at the moment. Machineguns should be the low-tonnage damage option for lightweight ballistics-heavy mechs or even as a damage boost for mechs with tacked-on ballistics hardpoints (and there are a lot of these). Flamers should cause targets to always be on the verge of overheating and prevent them from firing their weapons anywhere near as quickly as they normally can.

LRMs in their current state are probably too weak, I will agree with that, but I don't believe increasing their damage again is the solution. Rather, I believe they should receive a missile velocity increase so that they can land on-target more frequently, further cementing their role as long-range support weapons that can block enemy vision (lots of explosions onscreen at once), disrupt enemy concentration (psychological effect of being hit by many missiles), and soften up large chunks of their chassis (splash damage). Their primary boon is their ability to deal large amounts of damage per salvo (something that hasn't changed even after this hefty nerf), but the fact that the damage is spread across the chassis instead of a particular component is their biggest downside outside of the slow missile velocity.


Boy, you sure do live up to your name.

I wonder if you would have been content with playing LRMWarrior Online with the same handful of players until the game shuts down.

Those are simply features of the weaponry. Instead of saying they are support weapons, we should address what makes them far too good (as you see it, I thought they were pretty balanced, even the silliness before wasn't terrible). If its the ability to lock without LOS, we can change that, if its grouping, we can change that. It no longer has many of those features. They can be fired from cover without LOS (these are true), but often with ECM, you have to have LOS with TAG. They have good ammo to ton, but that's not important, its damage to ton. LRM-5 is a joke because a ton of ammo does 136 damage spread out very slowly, if it was quad the damage, but quarter the ammo, LRM-5 would be much better, LRM-90, would chew though ammo so fast (and of course, I won't be a **** and say, use cover newb, that's not nice, but in this case, when you use 2 tons of ammo with 1 shot, actually making them waste it is completely viable).

We should make LRM-5 good, LRM-20 better (but balanced), but we shouldn't think of weapons as support systems, missiles generally require less aiming skill and more placement skill (where should I be now). Like I said, maybe too strong, and maybe not, but LRMs are not skillless and we shouldn't punish them and make them completely worthless.

EDIT, I forgot to add, I would consider them lower heat as well, but when you pack the amount needed to kill with, they are no longer cool, and many mechs use LRMs far beyond their tubes, and that means they can't fire at full speed. Their heat to DPS and damage looks good, but how they preform in game (pre current and pre Jager broken), its really pretty well balanced.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 21 March 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[Splitpin]

Well I feel the game is much poorer for all this. Reduce one third of weapons to less than viable, and we have a poorer game.

[Haitchpeasauce]

matux, on 21 March 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Do you have a release date for SpreadsheetWarrior? when can i buy into the closed beta?

Please, Matux. I want the Legendary Founders package, the one with pivot tables.

[Mormaz]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

The Hotfix

Now our primary concern as to what is happening on the live servers is to curtail the incredibly high damage levels of missiles/explosions. To make the missile explosions/damage feel like they should and to keep the damage spread across a Mech, we kept the above mentioned splash damage work along with the following damage changes to missiles:

LRMs drop from 1.8 damage per missile to 0.7 damage per missile.
SRMs drop from 2.5 damage per missile to 1.5 damage per missile.

DO NOT HIT REPLY TO FREAKOUT YET!

It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE:
This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented.

Imo best part of message that some players here didn't read, i guess....
I'm sureit says somehow it's Temporary , and for a reason...

I'm a LRM player, i had fun during 2 days, had a feeling of mighty God Zeus who strike with lightning.
Now back to serious thing, let the devs do their job, and do as they ask.

Edited by Mormaz, 22 March 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Divine Decoy]

Been reading this a lot since the Cats are iconic mechs. Long range support mech (CHECK), Good for big maps with little cover (CHECK).... but in game, none of this holds up. We have 2 maps that would allow this, and even then there is plenty of cover, OR ECM mechs. When you have a weapon that is suppose to soften up the enemy, or finish off weak enemies, but they only hit round 30% of the time, and the other 70% of the time they miss, or get negated by ECM.... well frankly that weapon becomes useless. Why bother when you can use AC2, Gauss, or PPCs that can be used for greater affect?

If that is LRM's job and it doesn't do it, it gets fired. All the Cat and Trebs Mechwarriors are out of a job, since any mech with mostly Energy or Ballistics can be fitted to do it better. YES post Jager patch LRMS were insane. I got hit by 30 that tore off my arm and side torso armor on my fully armored CTF-3D. 1 VOLLEY of 30 missles!!! Insane. I've also sent 30 into the back of an atlas that nearly cored took off his arm. NOT OK, i had like 880 damage that match with 2 Artmis LRM-15s and 3 med lasers and TAG. Streak Cat test proved their OPed posted patch.....

Pre-Patch owning in the same 2 LRM setup I could use all my missles and FIGHT with lasers and get round 600 damage. POST HOTFIX, same style and play, I can bearly reach 300 damage. THIS IS NOT OK.

WHY would anyone use a mech that can barely do damage in a game about KILLING other mechs? It isn't to "support" the team by annoying the enemies with flies. Lights can do that, and STILL get more damage in a match.


****SOLUTIONS PGI******* PLEASE READ:

1) leave the defined role of LRMS as is. They function as they should. A constant danger to stop stupid Call of Duty chargers from getting kills on a team that has no snipers...
A) give ammo type as suggested. Like artillary in World of Tanks, either hurt 1 Mech or multiple mechs grouped up with big weak splas/heat.
Go back to pre-Jag patch performance They could kill a mech if TAGed, Artimus, and multi-shot the same side (I.E. snipers ignoring the Missile incoming 3 times while facing you... However, increased splash damage to Armor is NICE, but damage is too low..... SO armor periceing missiles (slight damage internals 1 out of 10 missile hits, OR heated side-effects from being constantly hit from missiles either/both added in the current stat might work too.

2) LOOK AT THE HIT PERCENTAGE DATA!! This tells you so much of effectiveness. LRMS (even using the 180 to 360ish attack range) still WASTE so much, and their percent drops a lot beyond that due to
A) Maps with too many hiding spots,
ECM...... Too much to say, it is close but not where it needs to be
1-Fix flight paths so they arc DOWN on enemies behind cover, or hit them straight on if in the open,
2-make more maps with vantage points to rain them down (or as mentioned option to chose mech based on map (Ala the LOBBY feature so many of us ask/want)
3- group them tighter but make them hit different parts of the mech thus increase hit %, and damage but spreads it a lot thinner. 3 solutions right there.

3) ECM: Yes, can't talk about lock-on weapons with out talking about ECM. EASY FIX. they can only scramble a mech's lock on IF the ECM mechwarrior TARGETS a specific MECH. OTHERWISE it just gives cover to detection range. SO, no more ECM mechs HIDING behind walls, mechs, etc just to disrupt LRMs from doing ANYTHING. The A1 is useless now with ECMs UNLESS its a splatcat (another potential topic)

So if ECM was fixed as described, a team with 2 SUPPORT mechs could still fight half strength, OR defend themselves. As it is now, 1 ECM can make another team's LRMS pointless. Team based game or not, why use a weapon with HIGH RISK and NO REWARD (other then... SWEET i'm playing a classic mech.... how many of you kept your spider's stock with machine guns cuz's its cannon?) How many use Cat-A1 for anything other then splatcat due to ECM? I miss my 4 LRM5, 2 SSRM A1 that was fast support at 200 mm, now it's better to use any mech with 2 or 3 PPCs (or ERPPC Cidas mind you.... do the job better)

*****PGI I hope you read this tooo***

I'm sure most could agree with these fixes. NO, i don't want uber mech weapons (I do want and Urban Mech for giggles though.... it keep my commandos company)

NO, i don't want SNIPER-Warrior or LRM-boater online, but I don't want tactically sound players to not be able to play that way. Bring a 6 PPC stalker to river city, DIE fast, not own. Bring a splat-cat to Alpine, DIE fast, not face hug 2 mechs to death. Streak cat, why those LRM boats should get him almost dead before in range, NOT he was covered by ECM and your team had no TAG to counter.....

EDDIT: fixed some explinations to clear it up, PGI read this, everyone else check out the sumation of our request to balance and fix the game. Yay or nay? ECM suggestions easy enough to do and acceptable? LRM/SRM Suggestions make sense and balanced out with out being a hater (for or against them as so many ppl 1 sided this topic)?

Edited by Divine Decoy, 21 March 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[Ravingdork]

I can't wait till they change it again. I can't believe they caved in to all the newbs who don't know how to use cover.

I can't wait till they change it again. I can't believe they caved in to all the newbs who don't know how to use cover.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

ICEFANG13, on 21 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

What defines support weapons? When you pack on say 30 tons, why does that have to be support? When they buffed TAG foolishly to become a LRM boat tool, and Artemis works with LOS, why is this a support weapon?

Let me tell you about "support weapons", people choose weapons that deal damage. Are you telling me that machine guns and flamers are amazing support weapons? Mechs specialize in them and 8 mans bring them?

Calling something a support weapon is like saying its ok to be bad, its like you say, "I know its bad, but its ok, because of X".

A/C-2s aren't designed for damage, just support weapons, they need to be nerfed 1/20 to TT values.

We have 26 different weapons (including LRM5 to 10 etc), and you may think the damage is fine, and I don't think it is, but that aside, no one should ever say what is being said.

Its a support weapon, it can suck because its not supposed to get kills.

I'm not packing (well actually I hate LRMs, so I never use them but) 30 tons of stuff to "support". I'm not bringing a mech that has no ability to defend itself, I'm not a support mech, and NO ONE should have to be.

Tell all this to your local miltary acquaintances who work with artillery or missile support, land, air, or sea. Tell all this to the current and former military who are still alive because of that long range support. Because I know a few people, freinds and family both, who I guarantee would have a LONG and LOUD laugh right in your bloody face.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 21 March 2013 - 10:22 PM.