673 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Thontor, on 22 March 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

0.7 + 0.28 = 0.98

You seem to have confirmed my post

Testing shows they actuall do more damage than that... 1.8m splash is bigger than you think.

Then your initial post was incorrectly stated.

You say "If ANY splash is dealt, then an additional 0.28 is added" where that is incorrect. The splash is a linear function of distance. If this is not what you meant, then sorry about the post.

[truditu]

So I just took my Atlas d dc (sporting an lrm20 and a lrm15, 2 uac5s and 2mlas) for a ride for the first time after the hot "fix".
And daaaaaaaaamn.
I ended up on alpine peeks close to our base. I noticed a cent going for cap. This is a noobish cent right here, since he is completely alone, completely out in the open. So i start unloading on the man from about 500m and he panics and runs back to his team. He is running at about 70-80kph perpendicular to my direction. I got as close as 400m to him.
200 missiles i ulnoaded on the guy with a perfect LOS, nothing between us. Wanna guess what my damage was? 80 damage. 80 damage on a r'tard out in the open, his only defense, paniking and running away. 80 damage delt for 1.1 tons of ammo and during 20 seconds. And you call this fair? Balanced? This is the equivalent of 3.8 small lasers...

I perfectly agree that LRMS were OP. No doubt about that. But this... I died a little inside seeing this.
And this is why we can't have nice things...

[Brynstar]

Nincompoopery, on 21 March 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I tagged a Cat K2 at about 450m who was on top of a building. I poured three salves of two LRM20 + Art into him... and nothing. Was he damaged? Yes. But he should have been dead.

No, he should NOT have been dead. You are running a support style weapon, and you only hit him 3 times. Missiles don't do pinpoint, so why would he be dead instead of just stripped of some armor etc.? You would need to shoot the Cat's glass three times with a boom cat or something to core someone in 2-3 shots.

[Reptilizer]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Any location directly hit by a missile takes the full damage. Any secondary component hit by the splash damage radius takes splash damage based on how far the location is from the center of the explosion.

We also added a scaling factor of 0.4 to the amount of damage done to secondary components. From the impact point to the outer radius of splash damage, this factor of 0.4 drops linearly to 0.0. This means that if somehow magically the point of impact is so close to the secondary component, the maximum damage it would take from splash is WEAPON DAMAGE * 0.4 (that is 40% of weapon damage).

Ahhh brain hurts from massive failure in logic...

I mean, just read what is stated there:
If you hit a big target with low spread you do MUCH LESS damage than if you hit a component only barely due to a linear drop in splash damage application.
So better place your SRM shots now where a lot of components join. Because direct hits to CT will do the least damage possible. Working as intended? Not.
Also, bigger mechs receive LESS damage through LRM fire, because the distance between their components is greater. Makes sense, right? Right??

To make the brain hurt go away:
Splash damage in that way only makes sense, when it is also applied gradually to the component the actual hit takes place. If this is not possible in the actual model, your model is flawed beyond repair. Think of something else guys, you are paid for it.

No offense intended:
Brain on -> develop new model -> brain off. Thats the way to go. Other way round is prone to result in desaster.

[ICEFANG13]

I want people to try this mech, and tell me how the little launchers and low missiles per shot are doing. Post screen shots. Great way to see how it works at the smallest point and not with LRM-60 mechs.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7fbb04f66c46cee

[warner2]

Reptilizer, on 22 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Ahhh brain hurts from massive failure in logic...

I mean, just read what is stated there:
If you hit a big target with low spread you do MUCH LESS damage than if you hit a component only barely due to a linear drop in splash damage application.
So better place your SRM shots now where a lot of components join. Because direct hits to CT will do the least damage possible. Working as intended? Not.
Also, bigger mechs receive LESS damage through LRM fire, because the distance between their components is greater. Makes sense, right? Right??

To make the brain hurt go away:
Splash damage in that way only makes sense, when it is also applied gradually to the component the actual hit takes place. If this is not possible in the actual model, your model is flawed beyond repair. Think of something else guys, you are paid for it.

No offense intended:
Brain on -> develop new model -> brain off. Thats the way to go. Other way round is prone to result in desaster.

Calm down. This is a temporary fix to keep the intended behaviour of LRMs which is that their damage impacts multiple locations on the target. They couldn't get this behaviour by just removing splash damage at this point because LRM+Artemis tightens the missile spread so much that all of the damage would land on the CT.

I'd bet that the full fix in due course would be to 1) remove splash damage altogether as it's problematic and IMO too complex and unnecessary and 2) loosen the spread of missiles. That way you get hit by multiple missiles across multiple components giving missiles their intended property of spreading damage in the simplest possible way.

Edited by warner2, 22 March 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Imperial Banana Trader]

i have the feeling my med's are useless now
with 9dmg and 4 seconds reload time
im way better with two gauss rifles now

[Reptilizer]

warner2, on 22 March 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Calm down. This is a temporary fix to keep the intended behaviour of LRMs which is that their damage impacts multiple locations on the target. They couldn't get this behaviour by just removing splash damage at this point because LRM+Artemis tightens the missile spread so much that all of the damage would land on the CT.

I'd bet that the full fix in due course would be to 1) remove splash damage altogether as it's problematic and IMO too complex and unnecessary and 2) loosen the spread of missiles. That way you get hit by multiple missiles across multiple components giving missiles their intended property of spreading damage in the simplest possible way.

Well, might be that my post was overly dramatic. But they will not get rid of splash damage. Why? Because missile splash damage is just a tesing field for the splash damage that comes with the new consumables. They are splash damage ONLY as far as i understood.

So i think it quite important that they have some model that makes sense before introducing more of that splash-fun.

[Utnapishtim]

excellent post, this will be awesome for now. i missed being able to brawl. don't get me wrong, i don't hate LRMs, but when there's 3+ boats on either side (or worse, all boats just on one side) for every match, it just gets silly.

keep up the good work

[Royalewithcheese]

Now I don't make games for a living, but wouldn't it make sense to:

• Figure out what damage you want missiles to do.
  
• When a missile hits, calculate how it splashes.
  
• Subtract splash damage from the primary hit, so it does total (whatever you want it to do) damage.

[Bobzilla]

Did missles always do splash damage??

[Maliconus]

Shadowpunisher, on 21 March 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Missiles returned to TT values !!!

Gonna edit my sig !

TT= LRM's 1.0 pts and SRM 2.0 pts. In BrawlerWarrior they are now 0.7 and 1.5

[warner2]

Reptilizer, on 22 March 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Well, might be that my post was overly dramatic. But they will not get rid of splash damage. Why? Because missile splash damage is just a tesing field for the splash damage that comes with the new consumables. They are splash damage ONLY as far as i understood.

So i think it quite important that they have some model that makes sense before introducing more of that splash-fun.

What do you mean, the air strikes and what not?

Royalewithcheese, on 22 March 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Now I don't make games for a living, but wouldn't it make sense to:

• Figure out what damage you want missiles to do.
  
• When a missile hits, calculate how it splashes.
  
• Subtract splash damage from the primary hit, so it does total (whatever you want it to do) damage.

Perfect sense!

[Invictus Monstrous]

thank you for this fix. i was getting owned by lrm boats. lets see how it pans out in-game. HAPPY HUNTING!

[JabbaMitHut]

Beeing i passionate LRM user, i nearly freaked out reading this.
(Yes, some may say it takes no skill using LRMs...i think it takes exactly the same skill as running up to a mech and unloading SRMs at point blank.)

50% less direct damage + 60% less splash damage and radius seems huge.
Of course they did way too much after the patch. A fix was needed.

After a few matches with my little missile gatling ( 70 ALRM + Tag per salvo) now this is what i "feel"

All this when the enemy is in the open with Tag and Artemis working:

Damage against immobile or very slow targets is nearly ok. Could be a bit higher.

But as soon as the enemy is a little faster than a snail things start to break apart.
Faster Centurions still should take considerable damage when hit by up to 140 missiles in the back. Yet they dont, feels way to low.
Fast lights though sometimes dont seem to receive damage at all.
I unloaded 4 salvos on a commando circling a teammate and not a single component was internally damaged.

Is it possible that lag interferes? That when the missile explodes the mech is actually already a few meters away and with the reduced splash radius now doesnt take damage at all?

[Aesthetech]

So far, as someone who both hated how OP LRMs/SRMs were even before the disasterpatch, and someone who regularly uses them (usually in addition to other weapons systems, only boat on a couple variants), I like things much better the way they are now. If you want to boat LRMs, you should expect to not get many kills and mostly be focused on softening up targets and spreading damage around, keeping people's heads under cover and such. Otherwise, use them as a support weapon to other weapons systems.

I run my Founder's Cat with twin 15s (no artemis), twin LLs, an SPL and a TAG, and it's an awesome medium range support mech that can reasonably defend itself against smaller threats. I used it both back in the day and now, and I do quite well with it. Hopefully, we'll see more balanced mechs like that and the pure boats will be specialized rarities.

Also, looking at some of the above posts, it's like people forget they can fire their LRMs from behind cover and targets behind some cover, when they're comparing the DPS to direct fire weapons.

[Cpt Jason McCarthy]

Maliconus, on 22 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

TT= LRM's 1.0 pts and SRM 2.0 pts. In BrawlerWarrior they are now 0.7 and 1.5

You just forgot the splash damages

0.7+0.7*0.4=0.98
1.5+1.5*0.4=2.1
Damages when 1 secondary component is in the splash radius and take full damage.

And the splash radius of the SRMs is smaller .... so .... it's TT values !!!!!

[Thoal]

In my opinion well done.
I played some matches today and must say it is compared to the last days of frustration a verry good change. LRM´s and SRM´s are now fine. LRM´s are a good support weapon in comabt and powerful enough to destroy a mech anyway.

Complaining that LRM´s are useless now i can not confirm. A missle boat can also kill a mech on open field depending on mech class, range, torso direction to missiles, XL engine etc. in a short time like before the hotfix, but with one or two attacks more.
As an armor strip downer it is good enough in each mech to weak the enemy on range or give the final shot when a mech is highly damaged. And for a look on weapon fair enough.
Too many fights were fought and dominated by them the last time and were the only builds who seen on the battlefield who earn the most damage and kills for standing on a hill. Look on targets while the other mechs in the team got it to them into real danger and close combat.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Playtested my medium mech brawlers extensively with this patch. You nerfed SRM's too much. We pay a price for being close range fighters, sometimes we got shot up and cored before we even make it close enough to put out our dmg. Now its pointless to play a medium mech brawler. My Cent 9-A and Trebuchet 7-M are steaming piles of crap now. I understand its a temporary fix and you will be hopefully changing the dmg again. I will be waiting for increased dmg on SRM's, because as of now, medium mech brawlers are dead.

[ElLocoMarko]

Rezerford, on 21 March 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

I've never piloted LRM boats.
Can't tell for anyone else, but for me, I was completely satisfied with the LRM\SRM damage as it used be before latest patch and hotfix.
Why won't you just roll back config of missiles to that status?

Because the "old way" had SRM doing between 0.6 damage and 15 damage per missile. I played a splat cat for months and I know that the "feel" of SRM is going to suuuuuck because I used this bug daily didn't know it. Light mech - parital splat kills. Medium mech - two splats. Heavy and Assault mechs - had to really pound on them. The only nearly honest experience I had there was against the assaults.

But I agree with pre-Jager LRM. It felt pretty good. Hoping that my experience tonight won't be so different and that the doomsayers are just people who suck at LRM. When I started LRM I spammed enemies for 200 total match damage. When I started to target people who made piloting mistakes that went up to 600 and felt very good. There is a bit too much anecdotal evidence in this thread for me to really believe that my damage will be good but that's why I said "hopeful".

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 22 March 2013 - 09:41 AM.