187 replies to this topic

[Loc Nar]

Quote

The 4x is nice too, but the arm/torso split, 3 weapon types,

3 types, but in practice is two groups since once generally group weapons groups by range and this build could teach that little detail quite nicely, but I don't think will suffer much without proper grouping anyhow... I've built and run this mech and feel it honestly has exactly what a new pilot needs. Survivability, reach, damaging weapons yet enough ammo/heatsinks to actually use them, and can even defend itself at close range. Even if your spamming the heat is still manageable, and makes a reasonably decent zombie...

Pharoshi's Dragon looks great too though...

[Phorashi]

Loc Nar, on 24 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

3 types, but in practice is two groups since once generally group weapons groups by range and this build could teach that little detail quite nicely, but I don't think will suffer much without proper grouping anyhow... I've built and run this mech and feel it honestly has exactly what a new pilot needs. Survivability, reach, damaging weapons yet enough ammo/heatsinks to actually use them, and can even defend itself at close range. Even if your spamming the heat is still manageable, and makes a reasonably decent zombie...

Pharoshi's Dragon looks great too though...

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting grouping the missiles and the lasers together? You have to lead with missiles, but not lasers, therefore 3 groups.

Edited by Phorashi, 24 March 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

The 4x is interesting... nice to see AC/10s getting more play, they're beginning to grow on me as well. This thing probably needs even more ammo though... you have 90 ammo or 45 shots between the two cannons, but AC/10s can fire relatively fast for big guns and noobs will miss a lot... also, that arm ammo placement is an alien concept and disaster waiting to happen to me (guess it's fortunate that most phracts are cored long before they lose their arms, and there's nothing significant in the side torsos to be destroyed by an arm ammo explosion). I think a good zombie should have medium pulse in CT as well for maximum firepower if that's all you have left

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Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 24 March 2013 - 08:00 PM.

[Liam Neeson]

Garth Erlam, on 21 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

CPLT-K2 – Thad Jantzi: “I chose DoctorVishnevski's CPLT-K2. It has an XL-280 which gives it enough mobility to navigate the maps capably, while still leaving room for powerful weapons. It has four medium lasers so it can pack a powerful punch at short and medium ranges, as well as twin AC-5s for taking potshots at distance. There are enough heat sinks to deploy the weapons frequently, and enough variety between energy and ballistics to easily handle what heat does get generated."

So i took the time to go through and read all of these, waste of time though. 4x and dragon seem to be the only newbie - good mechs so ya. Also this made me WAT!? >>Center Torso: XL 280 Engine, 2 Double Heatsink<< Cant put 2 dbl hs in CT LOL. [/color][color=#959595]Also that a1 build is just so horrendously terribad I wanna shoot myself with an AC20. No ammo for bad weapon combo. Srsly if your gunna go that route, dont mix streaks and srms, pick one, and lrm 15s at least. Like 2lrm15's, 4ssrm or 2 srm4. Make sure your get a TON of ammo in there too, downsizr the engone if you have too, NEEVER armor tho.

Edited by Liam Neeson, 24 March 2013 - 10:12 PM.

[NikkoChan]

Don't really like any of them too much but at least the best two are in the lead being the dragon 5N and Cataphrac 4x. Too many different weapon systems or crappy heat management is not helpful for any new player. At least the 5N and 4X don't suffer badly there and provide sufficant firepower for anyone to do fairly well.

[HurlockHolmes]

The 4X is just about the best out of the bunch for new players as it is built well and has a round enough arsenal to teach the basics.

The 5N is a twig, even though a dragons side torsos are tucked away rather nicely, due to all the high alpha builds out there it will only take a couple good shots to put it down. A new player shouldn't touch be allowed to touch a 'mech with a XL installed with a ten foot pole. That being said, that 5N in particular would be rather decent in the right hands.... for a Dragon.

[warner2]

The phrase "balanced" appears far too frequently in these discussions. It's tough for a beginner to learn how to use a mech that has a complete mix of weapon types and ranges, whatever they may be. Frankly there are some guys who have been playing for a good while who can't handle more than two weapon groups. Give a beginner two different kinds of weapons at most and preferably a chassis that is focused at a particular range. Also if said beginner goes on to play the game a lot they will ultimately learn that boats rule MechWarrior to a lesser or greater degree.

Few if any of these mechs will actually help a beginner. True, most are a step up from the trial mechs, but that isn't difficult. Too many are unfocused, have far too many types/ranges of weapons, and are generally ineffective builds.

For these reasons the only one I could vote for is Phorashi's build. With a gauss rifle and 2 large lasers it's focused on medium to long range, has the speed a beginner needs to get out of trouble, and can be managed with just two weapon groups. It's just a shame it's a Dragon, but this is a more beginner friendly build than the majority of the mechs here.

After seeing these builds I'm sorry I didn't submit a few myself. I'll try harder next time.

Finally, having voted just before posting this I'm glad to see the sense in the community has put Phorashi's build in the lead!

Edited by warner2, 25 March 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[warner2]

Psikez, on 22 March 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

How did you come to this conclusion?

This is quite clearly the "Build a Trial" contest and not the "Build the 1 of 4 mechs that work for Run Hot or Die" contest

Sarcasm alert!

[Deathlike]

The thing about the 5N build besides it being solid (other than non-optimal gauss ammo placement) is that it is strangely an easy "min-max" build of sorts. It's not one run in competitive play, but it's literally just "simple" in its design. it's definitely a viable newbie build, but the issue IMO is kinda borders competitive and almost optimized in the same breath. Then again, the 5N is known to be the "worst" of the Dragons, perhaps next to the Fang (the Fang being just another Dragon for the most part).

The 4X build is a lot more outside than the multitude of AC2/UAC5 builds that commonly show up on a 4X, so comparatively speaking... it's interesting at the very least.

For the record, I'm very disappointed in the "hidden criteria" that was applied to this contest. Understandably "competitive builds" are outlawed, but having this "ninja armor rule" is complete BS. I can understand legitimate "design rules" like "it must have a decent amount of back armor", but the back/front armor ratio is complete BS IMO. It should matter more whether or not you put lots of armor points on it, than the actual armor distribution. If the armor is low, then there should be extra care as to what that armor is put to, for the purposes of analyzing is better. Discriminating against that is complete BS.

[Stickasylum]

Just curious, how would you distribute the ammo in the 5N? The RA is obvious for 2 tons, since if you lose it the ammo is worthless anyway, and it will help (slightly) with crits. Except for the large lasers, there's nothing else to soak crits off of. And you wouldn't want to put ammo in the LA anyway - if that's getting hit, you're rifles is all you've got left for armament. That pretty much leaves putting the last ton where it's likely to survive, so I guess maybe RT? The CT torso ammo is used up second, and if you're taking CT crits before taking 20 shots, you've got other problems.

Also, you say "min-max" like it's a dirty word. There's absolutely no reason not to put new players in good builds - they're going to die a lot anyway, but being able to maneuver and dish out some damage before they do might help keep them around long enough to try their own builds. Trial mechs don't earn XP, so few players will use it over their own mechs. And even if they do, so what? Giving good builds for trials is a good way of highlighting the mech's capabilities and, you know, actually acting as a trial.

[Ken Fury]

It's interesting to note (from a Founders perspective) that most of the non-founders tend to value the Dragon-5N over the 4X. Those that actually experienced the grind should be listened to. Not those spoiled by their Founder MCs/Mechs (like me).

Do NOT listen to me!

Thanks in advance.

Communication is Key.

[ThunderOverWater]

Both the 4X and 5N are great unconventional builds--props to both you guys. I really want to pilot that 5N; it's built to all the Dragon's strengths. That being said, for the noob me of yesteryear, the 4X would be better. Speed got me into trouble then, and my favorite trial mech when I was grinding them was the Atlas K. Multiple weapon groups were still fun even if a bit hard to manage.

The best part about the 4X is how slowly it fails with damage, whereas losing an arm on the Dragon (a common occurrence) neuters it.

[Lunareclipse]

Voted for Phorashi, because it's basically identical to the 5N I submitted - 2 Large lasers, 1 Gauss. Runs cool and has a decent turn of speed. I like it.

[Cebi]

I love dragons, but they are not newbie friendly beasts. The 4X is actually a fun sounding, newbie friendly, viable build.

[Sepertar]

Too bad they didn't wait till the Jagermech came out. If they did this would be a whole different story. I would have actually submitted a loadout if they had waited.

Not trying to be mean or anything, but next time you have one of these, if you have another, (most likely assault version) wait till the highlander comes out. Just a word of advice.

Edited by Sepertar, 25 March 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Gonaho]

I like both of the finishing-line builds, but voted for the 4X

My problem with the 5N is two-fold. First, it's not unique to the variant. It doesn't capitalize from the 5N hardpoint layout, and any Dragon could pull the build off. Would have liked to see those triple ballistics in use, even if it was just two extra MGs for the laugh of it. Second, it's a rather fragile sniper build meant for ranged combat. Now what is a new player going to do when he picks a "heavy" mech and drops into the game? Run into the thick of the heaviest brawl, that's what.

Which leads me to why i voted for the CTF build. It seems to be made with exactly the aforementioned in mind. A somewhat sturdy design with a standard engine and some zombie hardpoints to keep it up. Perfect for lumbering into the thick of things after your teammates. Plus it gives a taste of all three weapon types.

[Selfish]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 24 March 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

The 4x is interesting... nice to see AC/10s getting more play, they're beginning to grow on me as well. This thing probably needs even more ammo though... you have 90 ammo or 45 shots between the two cannons, but AC/10s can fire relatively fast for big guns and noobs will miss a lot... also, that arm ammo placement is an alien concept and disaster waiting to happen to me (guess it's fortunate that most phracts are cored long before they lose their arms, and there's nothing significant in the side torsos to be destroyed by an arm ammo explosion). I think a good zombie should have medium pulse in CT as well for maximum firepower if that's all you have left

.

I used the principles of the ammo location system and the 4x's profile to set up the ammo distribution in the arms. The left arm gets drawn from first. It's totally free of ammo in the first 8 salvos, the right in the next 15. They clear themselves pretty quickly. I chose the arms because they are low slung and small compared to the torsos. If people focus them they have a very low internal HP (smallest possible window to score crits) and need at least two crits of 10 HP or above as the AC/10 is large enough to take the first crit. It's popular for people to hedge their bets this way to get around dropping double CASE into a mech boating a bunch of ammo. I found it would just hurt the armor/ammo supply to double CASE, and would leave players high and dry if they took some bad hits with a lopsided single CASE setup.

[Michael Costanza]

I think it'll be like The Glee Project. If PGI wants more than one winner, they can always change their own rules. I still lean towards the CTF-4X, especially because it's easier to afford C-Bill wise. After the new player has their first 25 matches, they could buy the 4X and be most of the way to another CTF purchase... but I think there's good reason for both the 4X and the DRG-5N to win.

[Xerxys]

I don't run heavies because I just haven't gotten around to trying them out yet. Personally I would either go with a Catapult sniper config or a fast dragon with more energy based weapons for myself. I've watched veterans unable to land shots with ballistic weapons effectively when they're barely moving in assaults. Using projectile weapons on trial mechs need to be more in a sniper config imo. Let new players get used to how projectile weapons work from range instead of handing them a brawler mech with these weapons.
I would love to see a Dragon with a max XL engine and some medium/large lasers plus whatever else would fit. As a scout pilot the majority of the time, few things scare me more than a heavy mech that can damned near keep pace with me. For new players though, anything other than laser weapons are going to be extremely difficult to aim at speed.
I keep seeing this "balance" thing cropping up in threads. No such thing, period! Everything has its specialization and should be set up to take maximum advantage of it. It's this reason that you never really see light mechs running LRMs. They are a specialized mech and their armaments should take full advantage of that. Scouts have the 2nd best chance of killing other scouts and a solid chance to drop assaults. Mediums are usually able to drop a scout fairly easily but run up against real troubles against heavies and have some troubles with assaults. And on down the line. Trying for this fantasy of "balanced" is absolutely folly imo. What good is a Dragon with a maxed out engine if it's running PPCs and trying to be a sniper? The speed will mostly likely be a detriment. I've run a Raven 4X with an ERPPC and a ML. I used it as a sniper and was hoping that the PPC would be able to knock out the ecm of enemy mechs. It worked and failed in equal measure, but would I voluntarily run it if their were better options? Nope! The Awesome is another mech that you can tell was designed to be used as a sniper/support mech. Can it be used as a brawler? Yes, but with such a huge CT and head target box the results will not be as good even if you are really good at using the shield arm(if you have one of the variants) as much as possible.
Mechs like the Dragon are the ones that kind of break the barriers. With a maxed out engine and some descent weaponry it's a real threat to light mechs and everything else. It's probably one of the most solid mechs out there right now(imo) and quite capable in several roles.
I'm a firm believer that each mech and its variants can each fulfill several roles, but they are still going to be specialized and an attempt to make them balanced is just folly. The biggest problem and the reason that people are seeking this fabled "balanced" mech is because their is such limited teamwork. Nobody is going to voluntarily sit around and watch the LRM boats backside when there's destruction and mayhem to be had. This sort of thing would only happen in team play and perhaps not even then.
All of that being said, I don't think I could, in good concience, vote for any of these as a trial mech. New players are going to be ignorant of the whole range thing and won't be able to aim the projectile weaponry very effectively. As a trial mech for a heavy I would make a Catapult with 2xlarge lasers, 2xML/MPL and 2xSRM with a fair amount of DHS and SRM ammo. It's a simple build that would be very effective for a new player and allows them some practice with an aimed weapon. Catapults have the best twist of any mech in the game, they're quite fast for a heavy mech, and pretty well armored. The largest issue with trial mechs in the past were the SHS builds that overheated at the drop of a hat. Giving a new player a ballistic weapon is like handing a child a loaded gun. He's sure to hit something from time to time, but it may be his own teammates as much or more than the enemy and will eventually get killed before all is said and done.

Edited by Xerxys, 25 March 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Hayashi]

CPLT-A1: Not bad, but I'd put an LRM15 on it and SRM the rest actually. The problem with this build is that it will have its firepower cut to 20% the moment it'***** by ECM, which makes it a deathtrap for new players.

CPLT-C1: I'm not sure what Mr Ginn is doing since it's an SRM build, not an LRM build. Taking TAG without LRMs is a weird policy.

CPLT-C4: Taking 4 tons worth of Artemis is not going to be better than upping launchers to 15-class. Also, taking LRMs and non-tracking SRMs together is an inefficient build for range allocation as SRMs are mainly effective within only 50 metres or so due to spread, and LRMs are only effective outside 180m.

CPLT-K2: uAC/5 would be better.

DRG-1C: Redundant carrying Gauss together with SRM and Medium lasers. If aiming for a brawler, the uAC/5 has higher D/HSTA values, saving tonnage to up lasers to Medium Pulses instead.

DRG-1N: This long range Dragon might actually work, but uAC/5 won't work well at longer ranges. Gauss would have been better.

DRG-5N: This is a good build, but fails to play to the Dragon's advantages of speed. It will be inferior to a K2 outfitted with pretty much the same thing.

CTF-1X: Swapping the Large and Medium positions would increase build damage for free. Also, one Energy hardpoint in the arm is not being properly utilised.

CTF-2X: Finally a build that I can't easily find a glaring weakness to complain about within 5 seconds.

CTF-3D: This will be too slow to get into range of what it needs to fight. It relies on enemies wandering into you. Or fighting Assaults.

CTF-4X: Too slow, and way too much ammo.

So it's the CTF-2X. I can't say I'm too happy about the selection, I was hoping to have a hard time picking a good build; I'm having a hard time finding a good build instead.

Edited by Hayashi, 26 March 2013 - 06:17 AM.