187 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Stickasylum, on 23 March 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

The problem here isn't that its not simple, or explained in multiple places. It's that it isn't clearly explained in-game for the new player. LRMs have this same problem. Until there's a good in-game tutorial, quirky weapons like LRMs, Streaks, and PPCs are less-than-ideal for trial mechs.

This is a consequence of not having a live in-game tutorial. Obvious nuances that most of the current players are familiar with are usually shouted @ a newbie towards the end of a failing match, because they aren't aware of key important info. Then again, some people don't want to read what is in chat...

Quote

I was thinking that some sort of mini-splat, would be serviceable as a trial mech (Say 4xSRM6-As and a std engine). Now that I think about it though, I think the missile doors make any SRM cat too annoying to be a trial mech - that half-second lag will make it even harder to hit targets, and almost no new players will know that it's the bay doors that are the problem.

Imagine the fun they would have it they only knew....

[Deathlike]

MuonNeutrino, on 23 March 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Honestly, I would have to disagree. In my opinion, LRMs are one of the *easiest* weapons for a newb to spend all game firing and come out the other side scoring 23 damage. They've got a long range, and the indirect fire and lock mechanic seduce newbs into firing at totally unsuitable targets, thinking they've got a good chance to score a hit - and then they aren't going to realize that they're not actually hitting anything since they probably don't know about the crosshair flash thing and their targets are out of LOS. Plus they're shut down by ECM both near the target *and* near the user, and they've got the 180m minimum range that's never explained in game. Most other weapons, if the new player is using them ineffectively, they'll be able to at least partially realize it - they can *see* that they're missing. LRMs don't actually give them the feedback that they need to realize their mistakes and improve - they can happily shoot all game and think they're helping when all they're actually doing is providing a fireworks display.

I'm familar with LRM mechanics in the older games, so it's not that hard to grasp. I spent time in the Trial Centurion and did OK, but horribly (not because of heat, it was because the build sucked). LRMs mechanics are still pretty easy in this game for figure out... even with ECM to a degree. I did all of my trial games when ECM was released, so it didn't impact me too much.

The difference between LRMs and Streaks primarily happens to be that Streaks wouldn't fire at all at the target... LRMs would be dumbfired and missed. It was easier to understand the "not getting a lock" scenario for an LRM (especially when the 180m ECM radius wouldn't have let you do anything with LRMs in the first place) instead of Streaks where panic and not-firing would not go over well with newbies.

[LazySusan]

MuonNeutrino, on 23 March 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Sorry, should have explained myself better. I meant that it's not explained anywhere *in game*. Like the LRM example, newbs will be shooting them at targets closer than 90m, or even at facehugging range, and not realizing that they're doing effectively no damage.

What I am not is a Rocket Scientist.
What I am is a newbie (at least to MW:O).
READ the descriptions of the weapons as you load them. The min/max range of ALL weapons is in the Mechlab.

[Stickasylum]

LazySusan, on 23 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

READ the descriptions of the weapons as you load them.

If you're running a trial mech, you can't read weapon descriptions (Well, unless you've already bought another mech with that weapon class. But then why are you in a trial mech?)

Even then - ask yourself, what proportion of new players just hop into a game and go vs. doing boring research first? I'm willing to bet nearly everyone does the former. Heck, I didn't even check the keymapping before my first game (and got creamed, so I checked it before my second).

Edited by Stickasylum, 23 March 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Deathlike]

LazySusan, on 23 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

What I am not is a Rocket Scientist.
What I am is a newbie (at least to MW:O).
READ the descriptions of the weapons as you load them. The min/max range of ALL weapons is in the Mechlab.

I think the poster meant specifically that it is not exactly obvious what the implications of the damage dealt when the minimum range is a factor.

For missiles, the user will find out they deal no damage. That's the easy part.

For PPCs, the users will find out they did very little damage. However, they won't exactly realize the amount of damage dealt based on target's closing distance. They'll complain it is weak up close... and occasionally say they are "underpowered" for that reason alone. That's the issue that doesn't seem to be readily apparent.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 March 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[LazySusan]

Stickasylum, on 23 March 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

If you're running a trial mech, you can't read weapon descriptions (Well, unless you've already bought another mech with that weapon class. But why are you in a trial mech then?)

Even then - ask yourself, what proportion of new players just hop into a game and go vs. doing boring research first? I'm will to bet nearly everyone does the former. Heck, I didn't even check the keymapping before my first game (and got creamed, so I checked it before my second).

Well, since I am a professed non-Rocket Scientist.... I did my homework. I figured if I was going to invest time and possibly green-backs then I might want to get some mechanics down before launching into a game. But, that's just me. Your probably right, most won't do that. But, to your point, after a couple of games getting slaughtered, (hopefully) they'll do some reading on the forums, check out the training vids that are here and posted on many video sites.
And your right, the trials have no option to view those specs, I have since purchased a 'Mech that the screen cap is from.

[MuonNeutrino]

LazySusan, on 23 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

What I am not is a Rocket Scientist.
What I am is a newbie (at least to MW:O).
READ the descriptions of the weapons as you load them. The min/max range of ALL weapons is in the Mechlab.

Hm, interesting. Didn't realize that the recent mechlab revamp included that, nice to see. Regardless, though, I'd still rather not have weapons with things like minimum ranges on trial mechs, especially as you can't see that screen until you're out of trial mechs anyway. It's just a needless complication that a new player doesn't need to have to worry about.

[Dataman]

seriously? DRG-5N with gauss and XL engine winning the vote? It's clearly NOT a newb friendly build.

do they know that XL engine = death whatever torso blown. And Gauss has only 3 HP. And the gun could exploded when destroyed?

why don't give them CTF-1X that could give them the basic understanding of how the shooting works?

Edited by Dataman, 23 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Genewen]

Lot's of sadists on the forum, eh? I cannot explain how else that DRG-5N could get so many votes.

I went for the 4X. Great build for a newbie.

[Stickasylum]

XL is generally less of an issue in a Dragon because you CT is so big your STs will rarely be blown out before your CT. Admittedly, the large CT is an issue (and why Dragons aren't all that great for serious play), but going 81 in a Dragon is likely more survivable for a new player than going 60 in a Cata.

[LazySusan]

MuonNeutrino, on 23 March 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Hm, interesting. Didn't realize that the recent mechlab revamp included that, nice to see. Regardless, though, I'd still rather not have weapons with things like minimum ranges on trial mechs, especially as you can't see that screen until you're out of trial mechs anyway. It's just a needless complication that a new player doesn't need to have to worry about.

I don't understand this mentality. Why is it assumed that a new player doesn't WANT to worry about that, and should NEED to? I want to fire the right weapon at the right time, and if I don't, I will die, my team will suffer and most likely yell at me and may be defeated because of it. So, when is it that you think a new player should worry about this? 5 matches, 10? It will be even more if they don't understand range because they won't cbill up enough to buy their own to see this "needless complication" in their Mechlab.
What is this thinking about not wanting new players to understand BASIC strategies of when to fire what weapon?

[Stickasylum]

LazySusan, on 23 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

I don't understand this mentality. Why is it assumed that a new player doesn't WANT to worry about that, and should NEED to? I want to fire the right weapon at the right time, and if I don't, I will die, my team will suffer and most likely yell at me and may be defeated because of it. So, when is it that you think a new player should worry about this? 5 matches, 10? It will be even more if they don't understand range because they won't cbill up enough to buy their own to see this "needless complication" in their Mechlab.
What is this thinking about not wanting new players to understand BASIC strategies of when to fire what weapon?

It would be much less of an issue if there were an in-game tutorial. As it stands, these sorts of weapons are just likely to frustrate new players, because they won't be doing damage and they won't know why. Trial mechs are generally only used for the first 10-20 games, until players can buy their own mech. That makes the goals of the trial mech to 1) spark a new player's interest to keep them playing, 2) help them get a feel for MWO, and 3) get a feel for the particular chassis. Inundating the new player with obtuse ill-documented mechanics right off the bat can kill a new player's interest, which is bad for everyone. We want newbies to keep playing!

So yes, things like LRM minimum range, streak locking, etc. should wait until a new player is hooked. This amount of time varies from player to player, but the amount of time spent in trial mechs is so short that leaving such mechanics out of trial mechs will let players learn them at their own pace, once they're already invested in the game.

Edit: If Piranha is serious about new player retention, they should consider running some focus groups with new players of different backgrounds / familiarility with Mechwarrior.

Edited by Stickasylum, 23 March 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Gnatter]

Would have voted for the CTF-4x, but it tells me I already voted, even when I had not. Oh well.

[Stickasylum]

You can change your vote. Just click "Delete my vote".

[Darth Mech]

Stickasylum, on 23 March 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Edit: If Piranha is serious about new player retention, they should consider running some focus groups with new players of different backgrounds / familiarility with Mechwarrior.

This.

[Adhok]

Played a few games with selfish's 4X and I absolutely love it. It's simple and effective. Something I wish I could have learned on when I started the game.

[Phorashi]

Development insights: The Dragon-5N - Phorashi Trial 'Mech.

I'm not a founder, I wish I had gotten into the game in time to purchase a founder's pack, but I have been playing since you had to grind out some 60 trial matches to make enough money for a Jenner, and I chose to grind for a HBK-4P as my first 'mech. I remember overheating in the Catapult-C1 Trial 'mech and how often that killed me. I remember how bad I was about charging forward and not being able to get out, I remember not knowing about minimum ranges and blowing all my ammo in the first couple minutes of a match, usually directly into a hillside.

When I set out to create my build I wanted to avoid all of these problems, so I made it run cool. I put in an XL engine because, much like the catapult, the dragon has relatively small and hard to hit torsos, combined with a CT that attracts fire like a legged raven, the XL isn't an issue.

I avoided the Cataphract because it's generally slow unless you fit an XL or boat medium lasers, it also requires the pilot to torso twist to survive many brawls because of the huge target it presents. In addition, many of the fits are just plain hot without efficiencies, and many have 3+ weapon groups.

I avoided the Catapult because it's extremely easy to cockpit kill and all but the -K2 fit missiles and I feel like missiles aren't very newbie friendly between locking, minimum ranges and weight. The -K2 also often has sacrificial 'ears' and I don't feel like newbies would understand using arms as ablative armor.

I chose the dragon because, honestly, it's kind of the ugly duckling of heavy 'mechs, but also because I feel like the best way for newbies to learn the game is in mediums, and the Dragon is almost a medium.

I chose the weaponry for the 'mech before anything else, I wanted a Gauss and 2 LLas. Range and respectable damage while staying cool. I wanted to avoid splitting weapons between arms and torso so newbies would only have to track one reticule, and I wanted to have the fewest amount of weapon groups possible without boating.

Once I had made these choices I saw the DRG-5N, The ugly duckling of ugly ducklings, and knew that was my heavy. I slammed in weapons and the biggest engine, ammo-ed it up and shifted armor around until I had the fit that I submitted.

[Ken Fury]

Phorashi, on 23 March 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Development insights: The Dragon-5N - Phorashi Trial 'Mech.

I'm not a founder, I wish I had gotten into the game in time to purchase a founder's pack, but I have been playing since you had to grind out some 60 trial matches to make enough money for a Jenner, and I chose to grind for a HBK-4P as my first 'mech. I remember overheating in the Catapult-C1 Trial 'mech and how often that killed me. I remember how bad I was about charging forward and not being able to get out, I remember not knowing about minimum ranges and blowing all my ammo in the first couple minutes of a match, usually directly into a hillside.

When I set out to create my build I wanted to avoid all of these problems, so I made it run cool. I put in an XL engine because, much like the catapult, the dragon has relatively small and hard to hit torsos, combined with a CT that attracts fire like a legged raven, the XL isn't an issue.

I avoided the Cataphract because it's generally slow unless you fit an XL or boat medium lasers, it also requires the pilot to torso twist to survive many brawls because of the huge target it presents. In addition, many of the fits are just plain hot without efficiencies, and many have 3+ weapon groups.

I avoided the Catapult because it's extremely easy to cockpit kill and all but the -K2 fit missiles and I feel like missiles aren't very newbie friendly between locking, minimum ranges and weight. The -K2 also often has sacrificial 'ears' and I don't feel like newbies would understand using arms as ablative armor.

I chose the dragon because, honestly, it's kind of the ugly duckling of heavy 'mechs, but also because I feel like the best way for newbies to learn the game is in mediums, and the Dragon is almost a medium.

I chose the weaponry for the 'mech before anything else, I wanted a Gauss and 2 LLas. Range and respectable damage while staying cool. I wanted to avoid splitting weapons between arms and torso so newbies would only have to track one reticule, and I wanted to have the fewest amount of weapon groups possible without boating.

Once I had made these choices I saw the DRG-5N, The ugly duckling of ugly ducklings, and knew that was my heavy. I slammed in weapons and the biggest engine, ammo-ed it up and shifted armor around until I had the fit that I submitted.

good write up. As a founder I never experienced the real Trial grind. Thanks for this insight.

[MuonNeutrino]

LazySusan, on 23 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

I don't understand this mentality. Why is it assumed that a new player doesn't WANT to worry about that, and should NEED to? I want to fire the right weapon at the right time, and if I don't, I will die, my team will suffer and most likely yell at me and may be defeated because of it. So, when is it that you think a new player should worry about this? 5 matches, 10? It will be even more if they don't understand range because they won't cbill up enough to buy their own to see this "needless complication" in their Mechlab.
What is this thinking about not wanting new players to understand BASIC strategies of when to fire what weapon?

New players *already* have to worry about weapon ranges - it's not like all of the trial mechs people suggested had mono-range loadouts. Multiple weapon ranges is a core part of gameplay, and it's something that *should*, indeed, be introduced immediately. The fact that a couple weapons have a poorly-explained minimum range mechanic, on the other hand, is not. It's the same reason I wouldn't want to put an UAC5 on a trial mech - jamming is not a core gameplay mechanic, and it'd just give them something else to worry about while they're trying to master the basics.

I'm not saying that new players shouldn't have to worry about anything. I'm saying that the *number* of things we give them to worry about all at once right off the bat should be limited, so that they can more easily master the most BASIC ones. PPC minimum range is not a basic mechanic. Basic mechanics are things like heat generation, torso twist, basic teamwork (i.e. 'stick together'), ammo consumption, managing multiple types of weapons, managing multiple range bands, and the like.

Keep in mind that these days people are only in trial mechs for a relatively small number of games, depending on how expensive of a mech they decide to buy with their cadet bonus. I personally don't see anything wrong with giving them mechs that will help them learn the most basic gameplay elements for the first 10-20 games.

[Ken Fury]

Phorashi, on 23 March 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Development insights: The Dragon-5N - Phorashi Trial 'Mech.

I'm not a founder, I wish I had gotten into the game in time to purchase a founder's pack, but I have been playing since you had to grind out some 60 trial matches to make enough money for a Jenner, and I chose to grind for a HBK-4P as my first 'mech. I remember overheating in the Catapult-C1 Trial 'mech and how often that killed me. I remember how bad I was about charging forward and not being able to get out, I remember not knowing about minimum ranges and blowing all my ammo in the first couple minutes of a match, usually directly into a hillside.

When I set out to create my build I wanted to avoid all of these problems, so I made it run cool. I put in an XL engine because, much like the catapult, the dragon has relatively small and hard to hit torsos, combined with a CT that attracts fire like a legged raven, the XL isn't an issue.

I avoided the Cataphract because it's generally slow unless you fit an XL or boat medium lasers, it also requires the pilot to torso twist to survive many brawls because of the huge target it presents. In addition, many of the fits are just plain hot without efficiencies, and many have 3+ weapon groups.

I avoided the Catapult because it's extremely easy to cockpit kill and all but the -K2 fit missiles and I feel like missiles aren't very newbie friendly between locking, minimum ranges and weight. The -K2 also often has sacrificial 'ears' and I don't feel like newbies would understand using arms as ablative armor.

I chose the dragon because, honestly, it's kind of the ugly duckling of heavy 'mechs, but also because I feel like the best way for newbies to learn the game is in mediums, and the Dragon is almost a medium.

I chose the weaponry for the 'mech before anything else, I wanted a Gauss and 2 LLas. Range and respectable damage while staying cool. I wanted to avoid splitting weapons between arms and torso so newbies would only have to track one reticule, and I wanted to have the fewest amount of weapon groups possible without boating.

Once I had made these choices I saw the DRG-5N, The ugly duckling of ugly ducklings, and knew that was my heavy. I slammed in weapons and the biggest engine, ammo-ed it up and shifted armor around until I had the fit that I submitted.

I could have sworn I already quoted this before, but can't find the quote. As a founder it offers an interesting insight into what New Player have to go through.