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Build A Trial Mech - Heavy Edition Poll!


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Poll: Stuff! (1959 member(s) have cast votes)

asdasd

  1. CPLT-A1 - Darth Mech (64 votes [3.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.27%

  2. CPLT-C1 - Yami Keros (65 votes [3.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.32%

  3. CPLT-C4 - Cygolinos (53 votes [2.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.71%

  4. CPLT-K2 - DoctorVishnevski (84 votes [4.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.29%

  5. DRG-1C - Thragen (186 votes [9.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.49%

  6. DRN-1N - Sigmund Floyd (79 votes [4.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.03%

  7. DRG-5N - Phorashi (587 votes [29.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.96%

  8. CTF-1X - Omigir (58 votes [2.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.96%

  9. CTF-2X - Apostal (65 votes [3.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.32%

  10. CTF-3D - Aginato (154 votes [7.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.86%

  11. CTF-4X - Selfish (564 votes [28.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.79%

Vote

#101 Roburn Bliss

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:00 AM

I tried out the 5N build from the poll in MWO Mechlab. I make it 58.99 tons. Looks like you have a spare ton for more armor. You could also replace the Large Lasers with ER versions and you still have 17.49 seconds till shut down.

#102 Leonidesalinas

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:06 AM

that K2 build is crap... 4 medium lasers instead of PPC's? really? the K2 is a medium-long range support mech. not a brawler. bad build... mine was better. an AC/10 is more efficient in weight and ammo use instead of twin AC/5's.


i'm voting the 4X, the rest are bad.

#103 Darth Mech

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:07 AM

View PostD34K, on 23 March 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:


These mechs are terrible for their intended purpose. Give the poor scrubs a chance rather than hamstringing them with your own failures of imagination and understanding.

The "best" mech here is a Dragon

I want this game to be good and have new players enthused by it, but this is all kinds of horrible.

Then why didn't you submit your "best" Dragon??

#104 Darth Mech

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:20 AM

View PostJulius Wu, on 23 March 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

I kinda agree. Anything more than 2 types of weapons is probably a mistake. A new player is not going to understand convergence, lead times, minimum range, range, ecm, heat, jumpjets, etc...

Just give them a simple laser based, heat efficient, decently fast, std engine, mech. Something that the below average new player can step into and do 100 damage in a round because all they need to do is point and click.

Again, another broad generalization about new players and their understanding or ability to control a 'Mech in game. The last I checked, the Devs put up brilliant training videos for new players to watch, and with the training grounds the new player can work on convergence, min/max range, heat, jumpjets.... (obviously lead time and ECM will have to be learned in game but it's not like they would be unaware of either).
There are many new players that are already emersed in the MMO, first person shooter genre, where multiple weapons are used and teamwork is key. It's not hard for ANYONE to push a third button for the third weapon group.
We don't want our new users to just point and click, we want them to understand the importance of multiple weapon groups/types and how best to use them in a given situation/map.

Edited by Darth Mech, 23 March 2013 - 07:21 AM.


#105 Ken Fury

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:22 AM

We don't want them to understand anything, we want them to stay and get to love this beautiful unfinished gem of a game.

#106 Phorashi

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostRoburn Bliss, on 23 March 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

I tried out the 5N build from the poll in MWO Mechlab. I make it 58.99 tons. Looks like you have a spare ton for more armor. You could also replace the Large Lasers with ER versions and you still have 17.49 seconds till shut down.

Yeah, I forgot to put another ton of gauss ammo in the head. I made note of that earlier in the thread, the Mechromancer link is correct.

#107 Darth Mech

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:33 AM

View PostTank Boy Ken, on 23 March 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

We don't want them to understand anything, we want them to stay and get to love this beautiful unfinished gem of a game.

And why would they stay if they are ignorant of the concepts of playing the game? Or is it that you just want live target practice to boost your ego?

#108 KhanCipher

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:35 AM

View PostDarth Mech, on 23 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

we want them to understand the importance of multiple weapon groups/types and how best to use them in a given situation/map.


and this isn't the way to do it.

e.g. if i'm going to learn how to fight at a certain range, i'll build a mech to fight at that certain range

#109 Darth Mech

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:38 AM

View PostKhanCipher, on 23 March 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:


and this isn't the way to do it.

e.g. if i'm going to learn how to fight at a certain range, i'll build a mech to fight at that certain range

Then I will look for and DESTROY your one-dimensional 'Mech on the battlefield, the same thing that will happen to a new player who doesn't have different ranged weapons.

#110 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostKhanCipher, on 23 March 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:



and this isn't the way to do it.

e.g. if i'm going to learn how to fight at a certain range, i'll build a mech to fight at that certain range

View PostDarth Mech, on 23 March 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:


Then I will look for and DESTROY your one-dimensional 'Mech on the battlefield, the same thing that will happen to a new player who doesn't have different ranged weapons.

Or better yet a mech with the ability to compete from several ranges with minimal weapons: ERPPC, U/AC5 and mlaser. That's not complicated and can compete in any range. And yes I submitted a build like such it just wasn't chosen.

#111 Darth Mech

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:04 AM

View PostStalaggtIKE, on 23 March 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Or better yet a mech with the ability to compete from several ranges with minimal weapons: ERPPC, U/AC5 and mlaser. That's not complicated and can compete in any range. And yes I submitted a build like such it just wasn't chosen.

Thanks for the submission and your effort to contribute to the survivability of MW:O.

#112 Stickasylum

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostDarth Mech, on 23 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Again, another broad generalization about new players and their understanding or ability to control a 'Mech in game. The last I checked, the Devs put up brilliant training videos for new players to watch, and with the training grounds the new player can work on convergence, min/max range, heat, jumpjets.... (obviously lead time and ECM will have to be learned in game but it's not like they would be unaware of either).
There are many new players that are already emersed in the MMO, first person shooter genre, where multiple weapons are used and teamwork is key. It's not hard for ANYONE to push a third button for the third weapon group.
We don't want our new users to just point and click, we want them to understand the importance of multiple weapon groups/types and how best to use them in a given situation/map.


Most players in trial mechs are in their first few hours with the game. Skills like managing more than two weapon groups, arm/torso convergence, and torso twisting may come relatively quickly, but generally not before new players are done with trial mechs. That's what makes Phorashi's Dragon so nice - it has two different weapon types, but both are in the arms (easing new players into arm control, if they can figure out how to toggle the arm lock). It also has the range to engage enemies before they close (and do a bit of damage even if you go down quick), and the speed to easily stay on target in a brawl, and run away if desired.

The 4x is nice too, but the arm/torso split, 3 weapon types, and slow speed make it more difficult to handle, and a sitting duck in a brawl (for new players, at least). It would probably still be fine for new players, but Phorashi's build would be more fun for most.

The rest of the builds are much harder to use. LRMs are relatively difficult for new players to use properly, and would likely lead to getting sniped without doing any damage (or throwing LRMs at targets under 180m, since there's no clear in-game documentation of how the minimum range works). The dragon 1c has 3 weapon types AND a torso/arm split for the MLs AND an XL engine. The other Cataphracts are all too slow and/or fragile for brawling and 3 weapon types and have arm/torso laser splits.

Basically, I think Phorashi's Dragon is probably the best of these builds for easing in new players (and hopefully retaining them long enough to build their own mech).

View PostDarth Mech, on 23 March 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

And why would they stay if they are ignorant of the concepts of playing the game? Or is it that you just want live target practice to boost your ego?


Nobody wants to keep new players ignorant. However, the time in a trial mech (the first few hours), is only enough time to pick up basic techniques (like arm control, engagement range, sticking with the pack, etc.), and maybe some intermediate ideas. Getting players to stay long enough to buy their own mech (and then continue to learn) is much more important than front-loading new concepts.

Edited by Stickasylum, 23 March 2013 - 08:17 AM.


#113 KhanCipher

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:25 AM

View PostDarth Mech, on 23 March 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Then I will look for and DESTROY your one-dimensional 'Mech on the battlefield, the same thing that will happen to a new player who doesn't have different ranged weapons.


then i think we need to address some flaws with your A1, as soon as a RVN-3L (or some other fast ECM) gets on it, it has no battlefield use in MWO other than being an oversized paperweight. tell me how a new player will get out of that deathtrap, and anyways it's not all that great to use when you're a new player because of that huge weakness.

#114 MuonNeutrino

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:26 AM

I think a lot of people, including some of each of the submitters, the judges, and the voters, have somewhat lost sight of what this contest is actually about. We're designing *TRIAL* mechs, here. That does mean that they should not be terrible, like the usual trials, but it doesn't mean 'tweaked out competition build' or 'this build that does great in the hands of a vet'. It means 'build that's reasonably good and easy for a newbie to use and understand'.

What does that mean? Well, in the game as it stands, it includes some of the following.

No guided missiles - new players aren't going to realize that they're just shooting hills with their LRMs, assuming they can find a non-ECM'd target in the first place and realize that they have to maintain the lock until impact. SSRMs don't have that problem, but they do suffer from the 'WHY ISN'T MY GUN WORKING' syndrome.

No standard PPCs, because the minimum range is never (as far as I know) explained.

Exactly two or three types of weapons, if possible. Newbies need to learn how to manage multiple weapon groups, but overloading them right off the bat is a bad idea.

Reasonable heat efficiency. It doesn't need to run as cool as a gausscat, but they shouldn't be shutting down every other shot either.

Not cripplingly slow, but not needlessly sacrificing weapons for speed either. And no XL engines on cataphracts - I don't care if that's the standard competitively, newbies do NOT need to be continuously dying within 10 seconds of contact.

As optimized as possible *within those constraints* - let's face it, they still do need a pretty good mech.

With that in mind, let's go through the list.

CPLT-A1: No. Two *different* kinds of guided missiles, SHS, *and* a lack of optimization. Perhaps a vet could make it work, but it'd be a HORRIBLE mech for a newbie. Frankly, though, I don't think you could make *any* A1 into a good trial.

CPLT-C1: A very good example of a decent mech that is also a bad *trial* mech. Standard PPCs, a mlas that exists only to add another weapon group to keep track of, and a tag that they will have no idea what to do with and also adds another weapon group. AMS and a decent number of DHS are nice, but still, not a good trial mech.

CPLT-C4: This one is another OK mech that's not a good trial, though better than the last one. Mostly disqualified due to having LRMs.

CPLT-K2: *This* is a good trial mech. Only two easy to use weapon types, a sensibly chosen layout, no ridiculously glaring mistakes in construction, and plenty of heat sinks. Sure, it's not as powerful as many of the mechs in this list. However, it's exactly the sort of mech that would be easier to learn the game in. Only thing I would change would be to drop a few sinks and add endo steel to swap back to the standard 260 engine - again, less optimized, but easier for a newbie to use.

DRG-1C: Dragons in general are problematic, because they require large XL engines and demand a different and harder to grasp playstyle than other heavies. This general build is one of the best dragons out there (though I would make my own tweaks, of course), but it's another mech that I wouldn't really want to put a new player in. Mostly this is because of (ideally) needing 4 weapon groups, along with running a bit hot. It's definitely one of the better ones in the list, though.

DRG-1N: No. An autocannon that jams, two useless LRM launchers, and overall sacrificing far too much firepower to gain speed that will just let a new player get themselves into trouble faster.

DRG-5N: Probably the best trial mech you can do with a dragon. Simple weapons, reasonable heat efficiency, decent but not excessive speed, and overall an effective loadout. My only quibbles are that this puts all the guns in the arms, and that dragons still aren't the easiest to use. Still, a very solid choice.

CTF-1X: This would be ok, but it's just too hot. Plus, the armor is wonky. Not *bad*, but not really good either.

CTF-2X: No. XL engine on a phract is an instant automatic disqualification to start with (especially with a gauss on the same location!), and then it also will run far too hot, *and* has streaks. Another 'probably a decent mech in the hands of a vet', but *not* a good trial mech.

CTF-3D: Like the 1X, this is ok, but too hot running. I do like the idea of letting newbies play around with jets, but overall it's just not a good design to drop new players in.

CTF-4X: Another good choice overall. Slow, but not cripplingly so, and carries a nice loadout. Not *as* much of a fan of mixing all three weapon types right off the bat, but the fact that two of them are center mounted is very nice, because it means that the newbie will never be wandering around in a mech that has no guns left. Light on sinks, but the loadout is cool running enough that it can still work. Overall another good choice.

Ultimately I voted for the K2, mostly because of the simplicity of the design, and was disappointed to see that it didn't seem to be getting any love. However, I am happy to see that the other two I nominated as good trials are getting votes, and it looks like one of them will be the winner. Trial mechs do not need to be, and in fact should *not* be, tweaked out hypercompetitive builds. They need to be simple, easy to use, and still reasonably effective. I would prefer the CTF-4X over the DRG-5N, but both would work well.

#115 Deathlike

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:43 AM

View PostMuonNeutrino, on 23 March 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

No guided missiles - new players aren't going to realize that they're just shooting hills with their LRMs, assuming they can find a non-ECM'd target in the first place and realize that they have to maintain the lock until impact. SSRMs don't have that problem, but they do suffer from the 'WHY ISN'T MY GUN WORKING' syndrome.


LRMs are easier to deal with, despite ECM. Streaks seriously suffer natural issues simply because of ECM. Of course, we all know ECM is part of the trial mech problem... which isn't really solvable until any ECM fixes (ETA, mid-April/early-May patch due to the month balance testing rule that was described)

Quote

No standard PPCs, because the minimum range is never (as far as I know) explained.


It's simple. It has been explained many times before.

When reaching under 90m, your damage dealt is lower (by a linear drop). Here's a table for simple math reference.

Distance - Damage
------------------------
90m - 10 damage
81m - 9 damage
72m - 8 damage
63m - 7 d
54m - 6 d
45m - 5 d
36m - 4 d
27m - 3 d
18m - 2 d
9m - 1 d
0m - 0 d

So if a mech gets within 45m, you are literally doing half the damage you could... equivalent to a medium laser. A regular PPC is really crippled when you give the user "facetime".


Quote

CPLT-A1: No. Two *different* kinds of guided missiles, SHS, *and* a lack of optimization. Perhaps a vet could make it work, but it'd be a HORRIBLE mech for a newbie. Frankly, though, I don't think you could make *any* A1 into a good trial.


Besides the "obvious missed optimization" (the DHS upgrade is the equivalent of having 20 SHS), you can actually build with two different missile types. Consider some sort of dual LRM15/LRM20 + quad SRM4/SRM6 hybird setup could work... that would be the only viable way to work at this. It's not perfect by any means.

#116 Stickasylum

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:51 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 March 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

It's simple. It has been explained many times before.


The problem here isn't that its not simple, or explained in multiple places. It's that it isn't clearly explained in-game for the new player. LRMs have this same problem. Until there's a good in-game tutorial, quirky weapons like LRMs, Streaks, and PPCs are less-than-ideal for trial mechs.

View PostDeathlike, on 23 March 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Besides the "obvious missed optimization" (the DHS upgrade is the equivalent of having 20 SHS), you can actually build with two different missile types. Consider some sort of dual LRM15/LRM20 + quad SRM4/SRM6 hybird setup could work... that would be the only viable way to work at this. It's not perfect by any means.


I was thinking that some sort of mini-splat, would be serviceable as a trial mech (Say 4xSRM6-As and a std engine). Now that I think about it though, I think the missile doors make any SRM cat too annoying to be a trial mech - that half-second lag will make it even harder to hit targets, and almost no new players will know that it's the bay doors that are the problem.

Edited by Stickasylum, 23 March 2013 - 08:53 AM.


#117 veri745

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:10 AM

Voted 4X, because it seems simple enough to use, has decent heat dissipation, and I would actually want to pilot it.

#118 Bagheera

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostNikoliy, on 21 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Seams like a lot of builds went with what they like and not what someone new would be good at using.


Someone new isn't going to be good at using anything, trials, stock mechs, or customs. Because they are new. That's the whole point.

#119 LazySusan

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostStickasylum, on 23 March 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

I think the missile doors make any SRM cat too annoying to be a trial mech - that half-second lag will make it even harder to hit targets, and almost no new players will know that it's the bay doors that are the problem.

Then just keep the doors toggled open. Problem solved.

#120 MuonNeutrino

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:36 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 March 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

LRMs are easier to deal with, despite ECM.


Honestly, I would have to disagree. In my opinion, LRMs are one of the *easiest* weapons for a newb to spend all game firing and come out the other side scoring 23 damage. They've got a long range, and the indirect fire and lock mechanic seduce newbs into firing at totally unsuitable targets, thinking they've got a good chance to score a hit - and then they aren't going to realize that they're not actually hitting anything since they probably don't know about the crosshair flash thing and their targets are out of LOS. Plus they're shut down by ECM both near the target *and* near the user, and they've got the 180m minimum range that's never explained in game. Most other weapons, if the new player is using them ineffectively, they'll be able to at least partially realize it - they can *see* that they're missing. LRMs don't actually give them the feedback that they need to realize their mistakes and improve - they can happily shoot all game and think they're helping when all they're actually doing is providing a fireworks display.

Quote

<regarding PPC minimum range>
It's simple. It has been explained many times before.
<snip>


Sorry, should have explained myself better. I meant that it's not explained anywhere *in game*. Like the LRM example, newbs will be shooting them at targets closer than 90m, or even at facehugging range, and not realizing that they're doing effectively no damage.

View PostLazySusan, on 23 March 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Then just keep the doors toggled open. Problem solved.


Problem is that they won't know that - again, the missile bay door mechanic is something that's never explained in-game. It's something I didn't think about when I made my list, but it's another example of a build choice that's fine for vets, but bad for new players.





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