2001 replies to this topic

[Darwins Dog]

Bluten, on 02 April 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

If they do add it, it damn well better have a separate queue from FP or this game will sink like a stone in water. It's already been a sinking ship since they decided to drop the ECM bomb on us and not fix it month after month. If you force TP on us as well, I guarantee you that the majority of players that didn't already quit from that will now quit to this.

No worries there, that's what they said from the start.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.
  
• Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.

Also, I don't think your opinion of the playerbase is accurate, but that's only from my limited view.

Aside from that:
The more I think about the implementation ideas in OP, the more I like it. As long as there is a penalty for using it (like having no HUD) then players will have to switch in order to be really good at the game. I would personally like to see it confined to training/testing grounds, but I could live with what they are currently planning.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Jestun, on 01 April 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but if your target market is people with IQs so low they cannot figure out which way their legs are facing, how are they going to manage things like equipping their mechs?

If you are aiming the game at idiots now then you need to dumb everything else down. Otherwise you just annoy the current players ho actually want a mech simulator while also having a game that morons cannot understand (even though that's who you are catering to).

of course ..all the People who brought Wallhacks and cheats to winning

[Alois Hammer]

Heeden, on 01 April 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Emotes would be awesome for 3.p.v. I wasn't planning on using it but if we could /cheer, /wave and (most importantly) /point and /laugh I'd leave 1.p.v. to the fps fans.

You missed the most important one: /teabag

It's already implemented in the forums, the devs use it on us all the time.

Jestun, on 01 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

So... uh... who exactly told you (PGI) that 3rd person should be ingame?

The devs' imaginary friends, who outnumber us about 500 to 1.

Edited by Alois Hammer, 02 April 2013 - 06:34 AM.

[Deathbane]

Well, there goes me ever buying anymore MC. Bought some at launch, to support you bringing the franchise back. Now all I see if you pandering to the casuals rather than developing a true mech game.

Coolant should have been actual mech parts with tonnage, that could be damaged, brought a tradeoff and thus given something back to gameplay. Instead, you PGI go the lazy module option route that promotes pay resources to win and is more arcade free 2 play rubbish.

With the larger maps and nightvision thermal overhaul, I was hoping the game was finally moving in the right direction and gaining more depth outside the mechlab tinkering, and its highly disappointing to see some of the newer changes come in that will be detrimental to the experience.

Third person is nothing but detrimental unless added as a camera drone option that costs tonnage to install. This camera drone should be similar in use to the one in the Mechwarrior 5 proposed trailer. This would actually add a new scouting dynamic to the game, rather than simply adding a camera option that everyone has voted against and given valid reasons why it has no place in what is supposed to be a sim like game.

All this will do is further split a community, which will fragment hard anyway after you bring in localised servers for europe and america.

Unless Community Warfare is an amazing update with some real depth, our group may as well go play Hawken for all the kiddy changes being made to this game. While I can say there are many things wrong with Mechwarrior: Living Legends I never agreed on making it in, the lack of third person for three years of Mechwarrior gaming was the right way forward.

Edited by Deathbane, 02 April 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[needforsleep]

I agree that the current game is quite unfriendly to new players. The only reason i stayed with it is because im a big fan of Battletech and the previous Mechwarior games.

When i first started i got pubstomped for a long time. The reason, for me at least, was because piloting is hard, (as it should be. Thats part of what the players love about this game) and there is no easy way to learn. You just get dumped in an 8v8 with no idea what you're doing, then die immediatly, which is a VERY discuraging experience, and also didnt help me much to learn how to play. Even after i learned how to pilot to a reasonable skill level i was still held at a massive dissadvantage with the abysmal trail mechs. -lets see YOU try to play competitively in a baseline JR7-D- It took me days to buy and upgrade my first mech to a playable state. Though to be fair i do believe i've seen some hint at moving away from the base models with that "design-a-mech" contest thing, which i approve of greatly.

All of the above (besides general lack of exposure) is what was keeping, and almost continued to keep me, away from the game. I dont really see how 3rd person could have helped besides improving my spacial awareness when first piloting a mech. Which i will admit, is indeed a good thing that many noobies would appreciate, I dont see the benefit out weighing the negative impacts to the meta, core gameplay, asthtetic, and spirit of the game. Which i will not go into depth on, as they have been explained at length, by many different people, for the past 65 pages. Instead having a tutorial, and mechs that could withstand more than 5 seconds against a raven, would be two changes that greatly improve new user experience, without disrupting gameplay, segregating the comunity, or alienating the current fanbase.

That does not however mean that 3rd person should not be implemanted as a tool for new useres, simply that it should not be implemented as a part of CORE GAMEPLAY. It should absolutely be an option added to Testing grounds, not only for new pilots to learn to get a feel for the dimensions and handling of thier mech, but also for current players to admire thier custom paintjobs and what not. Combine this with a tutorial complete with "newbie tips" and i believe you will tackled the games steep, unfriendly, learning curving quite effectively.

Now, i know changes like this cant happen overnight, and Pariah Games WANT NEW PLAYERS NAO, as a maller fanbase means a smaller income which means a struggling game, so i have a compromise.

> ALLOW PLAYERS TO SWITCH PERSPECTIVES BETWEEN 1ST AND 3RD PERSON AT WILL DURING A MATCH DURING THIER PLACEMENT MATCHES AND ON TESTING GROUNDS, SWITCHING TO 1ST PERSON VIEW ONLY ONCE THEY ARE NO LONGER CADETS.
> MAKE THE FACT THAT THERE IS AN OPTION TO SWITCH PERSPECTIVES, AND HOW TO SWITCH PERSPECTIVES VERY VERY CLEAR.
> MAKE THAT FACT THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE THIS OPTION FOREVER VEARY VEARY CLEAR.

This, in my opinion, is a a good way the implement it in a way that focuses it as what it is, a tool for helping new players, while minimising other impacts it might have. It offers a newbie frienldy environment without impacting the meta game, or undermining the game as a simulator, and provides incentive for players to learn to play in 1st person view. I know this isnt exactly perfect as you only get 20 placement matches, which i will admit, is quite a short time to learn to play well, (if bots are added to testing grounds this becomes much much less of an issue) but combined with a simple tutorial and liberal access to the testing grounds, could work to enhance the new user experience.

As for a tutorial, it is going to take time, especialcy the complex tutorial campaign that every seems to be shooting for, while ignoring development and time constraints. I think a short, simple, tutorial like in League of Legends for exmple would work fine. A simple 2 parter that takes up a few minutes at most.

I'm no game designer but heres my shot at it.

Have 2 stages. The first stage has Bitchin' Betty run you through the movement controls (and i mean all of them. Backwards, forewards, reverse throttle, full stop, throttle decay on and off, ect) on a large map with lots of room to breath all in 3RD PERSON mode. (again a good reason to have it around) The second half would consist of Bitchin' Betty taking the player throught combat controls (aiming, firing weapon groups, setting weapon groups, targeting, cool shots, aiming while moving, arm lock togling, heat management ect.) by having you take shots at mechs in the testing grounds as you are told what buttons to push. Simple. Effective. Reletively easy to do.

This, I believe would help keep new users much more than any of that "3 gamemode," "3rdvs1st" nonesense, without segragating the playerbase or changing the meta.

Again, I'm not a game designer, but theres my 2 cents whether or not anyone reads it, or whether the devs consider it or not.

Edited by needforsleep, 02 April 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[veri745]

Having a 3rd-person-only queue and a 1st-person-only queue divides the community, and therefore I think it's a terrible idea.

If implementing 3rd person is a given, then I see only a few legitimate options:

• It's an option with a toggle for everyone. Everyone can decide 3rd or 1st person on their side.
  
  • I hate this option
    
  • Lots of other people I know hate this option
    
  • This is still better than dividing the community
• 3rd person for only certain game types
  
  • Could be cool if the game type was unique
    
  • Still somewhat divides the community
• 3rd person only during cadet bonus
  
  • There is lots of other feedback in this thread that I think is good about how this should be done.
    
  • Could be confusing or annoying for new players that get used to it when they are forced to switch to 1st person.

Edited by veri745, 02 April 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[needforsleep]

veri745, on 02 April 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Having a 3rd-person-only queue and a 1st-person-only queue divides the community, and therefore I think it's a terrible idea.

If implementing 3rd person is a given, then I see only a few legitimate options:

• It's an option with a toggle for everyone. Everyone can decide 3rd or 1st person on their side.
  
  • I hate this option
    
  • Lots of other people I know hate this option
    
  • This is still better than dividing the community
• 3rd person for only certain game types
  
  • Could be cool if the game type was unique
    
  • Still somewhat divides the community
• 3rd person only during cadet bonus
  
  • There is lots of other feedback in this thread that I think is good about how this should be done.
    
  • Could be confusing or annoying for new players that get used to it when they are forced to switch to 1st person.

I really think this problem could be fixed with bots. Have a bot game mode that lets you play 8v8s with players against bots, with the same 3rd person option as when you are a cadet. The games should definitely not count as placement matches though. giving the nublets the option to get all the practice they want in 8 player vs 8 bot games before they play thier placement matches, with full 3rd person option is the best solution. unfortunately MWO doesnt have bots.

They have cool shot and artilery strikes, but they dont have bots

Edited by needforsleep, 02 April 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Avon]

Initially I didn't like the idea of a 3rd person view, however now I have given it further consideration I can see how it could help boost the playerbase and introduce new gameplay options.

What I would propose would be allowing 3rd person in the training grounds so we can all gawp at our lovely mechs - what harm could it do? Also, if it helps people learn how to pilot their mech, all the better.
In fact, take it a step further - make the training grounds a proper tutorial mode too.

As to 3rd person combat gameplay, I am against it being used in the matches we currently have.
Where I can see it being used successfully is in Arena style matches.
Let mech warriors pit their skills in combat arenas for fame, glory and money.

Give them a scoreboard and a table of greatness.

Give them medals.

Give them titles ... whatever.

I can't see 3rd person meshing well with what we have already, or with what is planned for CW, but that isn't to say there isn't a place for it.

Make that place.

Put it in it.

Don't let it out.

Edited by Avon, 02 April 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Xolin]

I would LOVE to see 3rd person as a spectator cam (EI - after you have died)

I do understand that this can be exploited through team-speak (or other).

As for a play mode - I think if you limit it to a side-cam (Similar to Fallout 3, Firefall) as opposed to overhead, this would at the very least lower the exploit-ability of the over-head cam

[costi]

CSJ Ranger, on 01 April 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

Go back to your famous glorious the world-conquering world-shaping and single true Wot... there are no games except MWO and WoT ...ist Wot a Group like WoBlake?

Taking into account the huge success that WoT is and that it practically spawned a new sub-genre, I find the sarcasm rather badly placed.

[DOMDOM]

Against our collective "better judgment" you are implementing 3rd person view and I can understand the reasons from a business point of view - it's important to keep new players coming to the game to keep the population up and to keep the revenue coming to support the service, pay the staff, etc.

That's all well and good, but I can't emphasize enough that any move you guys make to segment the community is going to bite you in the *** in terms of long term viability. If anything, have it available in Training Grounds and introduce a new "Arcade" gameplay mode that allows any view but doesn't do any stat tracking. Earn C-bills, sure, but no XP and no ranking or anything. This way you introduce a graduated system where the goal is move new players into first person...eventually.

Other unrelated suggestions for improving player base:

(1) Fix the base capture timer. You want to know what's real offputting to new players? Hopping in a game, firing one shot, and having your base captured before anyone can run back.

(2) Reduce the mech pricing. $30 for one mech is crazy considering you'll need another 4 or 5 million c-bills to customize it after that. It's probably the worst F2P deal I've ever seen. I came close to buying a few things, but at these rates and not knowing what the longterm viability of the game is I feel foolish spending so much money on a single virtual mech.

(3) Focus on bugfixes and metagame. Introducing new features, like 3rd person, is something that should be at the bottom of the list. More important to building the community you desire to keep this endeavor profitable is giving us more than Counterstrike automatches. We need to be part of something bigger. I'm only a week in and already these maps are getting boring, though I admit I haven't explored what else there is in terms of joining a guild or whatever.

[Rejarial Galatan]

there is no reason beyond blatant money grabbing to have 3rd person views in the game. They are blatantly ignoring the precepts they laid out in writing when they first told us of this game, that First Person View was a KEY DESIGN PILLAR and that it was sacrosanct to this game. For those who have no clue what sacrosanct means, it means: Regarded as too important or valuable to be interfered with. The synonyms for it are: sacred, holy, inviolable. This is a violation of a key design pillar, of their reputation and we all get to watch as this blows the game into oblivion not being able to do squat to stop it.

[Deathlike]

I hate to put down this point, as I'd rather not have 3rd person, but there is some legit utility purpose for it.

Prior and during double XP weekend, I had been grinding out the Atlas. Even now, while I still have some of the Atlases for the grind, I had the most trouble with them altogether, particularly the Atlas-RS.

The Atlas-RS is seemingly the perfect long range mech... with PPCs and/or Gauss. I guess you could do something useful for it short range, but as far as I had it, it was the most troublesome mech. I simply could not get used to the "towering eye level height" vs the "rather low arm levels" that all of the Atlases have. It was very difficult to figure out if I am able to shoot over the hills at times. I'm sure if I "figure it out", it wouldn't be so painful (I'd rather be piloting a Jenner).

If 3rd person was deployed, I'd probably have a much better idea of where my arms are, relative to the hill that I must climb over to shoot. It been significantly easier in other mechs (Raven, Jenner, Cicada, Catapult) because it's not that hard to envision. The Atlas however is that special case. Imagine if you had to shoot in a Thor... which it's cockpit in a slightly strange location (it's like its left torso or something IIRC). In 3rd person, you are able to see where your weapons come from and have a better idea on when to shoot. When mechs have the overhead arms like the Stalker, this is a non-issue... but when you have the arms that are far lower than eye level, it truly can be problematic.

Again... I'd rather have no 3rd person, but there are genuine instances that 3rd person is supposed to help you out. The Atlas in my case is one of those instances. 1st person in an Atlas is very difficult to snipe with... let alone shoot weapons from.

[White Bear 84]

As long as i can make the choice to play against 1st person only then this implementation seems reasonable. Good luck to the 3rd person players trying to fill their teams

[MWHawke]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I hate to put down this point, as I'd rather not have 3rd person, but there is some legit utility purpose for it.

Prior and during double XP weekend, I had been grinding out the Atlas. Even now, while I still have some of the Atlases for the grind, I had the most trouble with them altogether, particularly the Atlas-RS.

The Atlas-RS is seemingly the perfect long range mech... with PPCs and/or Gauss. I guess you could do something useful for it short range, but as far as I had it, it was the most troublesome mech. I simply could not get used to the "towering eye level height" vs the "rather low arm levels" that all of the Atlases have. It was very difficult to figure out if I am able to shoot over the hills at times. I'm sure if I "figure it out", it wouldn't be so painful (I'd rather be piloting a Jenner).

If 3rd person was deployed, I'd probably have a much better idea of where my arms are, relative to the hill that I must climb over to shoot. It been significantly easier in other mechs (Raven, Jenner, Cicada, Catapult) because it's not that hard to envision. The Atlas however is that special case. Imagine if you had to shoot in a Thor... which it's cockpit in a slightly strange location (it's like its left torso or something IIRC). In 3rd person, you are able to see where your weapons come from and have a better idea on when to shoot. When mechs have the overhead arms like the Stalker, this is a non-issue... but when you have the arms that are far lower than eye level, it truly can be problematic.

Again... I'd rather have no 3rd person, but there are genuine instances that 3rd person is supposed to help you out. The Atlas in my case is one of those instances. 1st person in an Atlas is very difficult to snipe with... let alone shoot weapons from.

That would just leave the whole thing open for exploits. I run PPC Atlas Rs'ses and have learned to shoot with them. Maybe you should try learning it too?

[Livewyr]

If the ECM thread was any indication; I wouldn't bother posting here either.. it's going "where they want it to be" regardless of what you say..

And the fact you're having this discussion at all says that perfectly.

[Wildman13]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

We did an analysis of our data and found that players in general were having a hard time learning how to control their BattleMechs. We spent time studying their behaviours, observing, and then formulated a series of improvements. You have already seen some of them (new user controls). We did some market research, looked at the target demographic that we engaged initially but did not retain (played a few matches and left), and found that many players were not able to easily grasp the concepts of their `Mech, especially movement. 3rd person will help solve some of these issues, along with a new UI, training and testing grounds, and other features coming down the pipeline.

Hope that answers your question.

Just a lone anecdotal tale: I let my 11 year old son and 6 year old daughter drive and shoot on the training grounds, and they were able to pick up the nuances of torso movement versus mech vectors within 20 minutes.

[No7]

FatDaddy, on 04 April 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:
We did some market research, looked at the target demographic that we engaged initially but did not retain


Just a lone anecdotal tale: I let my 11 year old son and 6 year old daughter drive and shoot on the training grounds, and they were able to pick up the nuances of torso movement versus mech vectors within 20 minutes.

So I guess we have to assume their target demographic is below 6 years old.

[Wildman13]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 March 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

HERES an idea, put a REAL poll, in the launcher, "do you want 3rd person" "yes" "no"
Then publish the %ages so we can SEE this majority youre listening to more than the people who actually care enough about this game to sign up for the forums and keep posting through all the trolling/flaming and **** we wade through daily

I doubt the efficacy of such a poll. Many people presented with a sudden new poll they must vote on will likely say to themselves "third person view? sounds cool" and check yes. They won't think of all the possible implications on difficulty and gameplay raised on the forums, or alt-tab out of the game to check the forums for more information. For the average player it'll be a snap decision, and adding an option usually wins out over not adding one to the average player.

Edited by FatDaddy, 04 April 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[MWHawke]

No7, on 04 April 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

So I guess we have to assume their target demographic is below 6 years old.

Or maybe they had the poll in the mental asylum.. that would explain how they, "spent time studying their behaviours, observing, and then formulated a series of improvements" of which 3PV was a HUGE part of it.

That's what they do in mental asylums right?