2001 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Void Angel, on 08 May 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

More precisely, they are making an excellent game for money;

"Excellent"...

[Dishevel]

Void Angel, on 08 May 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I didn't say complaining was (or was not) futile. I pointed out that complaining here is futile, because such complaints really are off-topic. Make another thread, with a constructive argument.

We have. Read my signature.
That is them telling us that Farmville is the model they are going after.
The easier they make the game the more people they can shove in.
Those of us who wanted MechWarrior are just not ever going to get it.

[Warge]

Dishevel, on 08 May 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Understand this thread is not to debate the merits of them paying us MC but of how much MC they should Pay.

If I could, I would put more "likes".

[Warge]

EvilCow, on 08 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Loud and clear like: no more money from me until this thing is officially withdrawn and goodbye if it will be ever introduced. This is the new deal.

Not all of us are "founders" to demand money back. Even if we could - it's change nothing.
Today I put another 100$ into game. It's stupid, I know... even I'm too feel cheated.

[Warge]

Dishevel, on 08 May 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Those of us who wanted MechWarrior are just not ever going to get it.

Interesting. Could I reclaim all invested money if it turns out that the game was not the same as we were promised?

[Warge]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 08 May 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Before it went OB, yes you could. They were offering refunds then

"Long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." (c)

[CyBerkut]

Jason Parker, on 06 May 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Haven't been in this discussion for quite a while. I am happy about the planned details that Bryan and Paul posted (locked to torso, no free look, reduced HUD elements, zoom in when approaching cover) as they will negate any potential advantage of 3rd over 1st person and thus negate the necessity for a player base split over perspective. But at the same time those very details let a question arise as with those limitations the third person view will most probably be unplayable and a no brainer to not play in:

Emphasis added

Can somebody provide a link to the source for this? Maybe even provide a direct quote?

Thanks!

[Void Angel]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 08 May 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

and bending over to like it every time they lie makes you what? An adult?
Yeah, I guess that activity is adult

As an adult, I know the difference between namecalling, temper tantrums, and conflict resolution. You'll understand when you're older.

Dishevel, on 08 May 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

We have. Read my signature.
That is them telling us that Farmville is the model they are going after.
The easier they make the game the more people they can shove in.
Those of us who wanted MechWarrior are just not ever going to get it.

Oh good grief; first, your signature is a redundant quote of part of the OP for this thread; it doesn't have anything to do with what you're arguing. Second, and third, and fourth: no, not really, and get over yourself;
For the second line, they've told us nothing of the kind; that is the interpretation you chose to put on the implementation of one (possibly insignificant) feature so that you can slander the company - because you don't want the feature put in.
Third, while it may be emotionally gratifying for you to assume anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, it is not a reasonable assumption to make. Furthermore, your claim is nonsensical to begin with. The difficulty of this game lies in the other players you fight against. Comparing a competitive format to a PvE Skinner-box setup is like comparing apples to chartreuse.
And lastly, spare me the emo tears about how you're the only real guardians of BattleTech fandom. When a statement boils down to "you disagree with me because you're not a real fan," it's time for you to go outside.

[Void Angel]

CyBerkut, on 08 May 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Emphasis added

Can somebody provide a link to the source for this? Maybe even provide a direct quote?

Thanks!

It's actually in this thread - Some of it are in responses, I believe.

[Void Angel]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 08 May 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Funny, I can see you post but all I hear is "stop criticizing the devs they are perfect!!!"

Straw Man

This means that you've lost the argument, because you can't give a refutation for my position. Thank you for conceding defeat - it takes a big man to display such ironic, self-effacing humor in the face of a public humiliation. Unless you're actually serious, in which case by all means continue to embarass yourself. /ignore.

[LordBraxton]

Thontor, on 08 May 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

... You really aren't getting it...

A poll of forum users about the forums is relevant because the outcome only affects only the people that are being polled. How many people felt compelled to vote in the poll is irrelevant, because if they use the forum, they had the opportunity to vote and made a choice whether or not to.

A poll of forum users about the game affects all players of the game, even those who do not use the forums and did not have the opportunity to vote in the poll. Yes, more forum users felt compelled to actually vote in the poll, but that doesn't change the fact that the people who do not use the forums were not represented even though the outcome of the poll would effect them too.

Of course the 3rd person poll got more responses, that is not a reflection of how many people play the game or use the forums, but a reflection on how passionate people are about that issue.

People aren't so passionate what subforums to merge or keep, so they simply don't care enough to vote in the poll.

I sort of agree with you, in that polls by their very nature are inaccurate.

but this is the case with EVERY poll, even the big political ones people spend millions of dollars on. (you cant poll everyone so the results will never be 100% accurate)

The argument that the forums are NOT a microcosm of the total community is laughable, and has no ground to stand on.

Development teams (other than PGI) rely on forums for feedback during betas, to make changes.

The devs spouted about 3rd person, and received COMPLETELY NEGATIVE feedback.

They are choosing to ignore it because they don't like that answer.

There is no silent majority sitting around waiting for 3rd person to be implemented.

They don't exist.

Edited by LordBraxton, 09 May 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Hawker]

To respond to "what will I do if the 3rd person que is larger than the 1st person que... or if the 1st person que isn't large enough to support play"

Well I will drop if they let me drop. Maybe we only have 4v4's or 2v2's or even 1v1's. That is fine by me. And if I am the only one in the 1st person que, so be it.

[Jestun]

LordBraxton, on 09 May 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

There is no silent majority sitting around waiting for 3rd person to be implemented.

They don't exist.

But... but...

There must be millions of people sitting at home thinking "I really want a big shooty robot game that's 3rd person and for some reason I am oblivious to Hawken - what should I do?!". PGI surely knows what it's doing!

[Dishevel]

Jestun, on 09 May 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

But... but...

There must be millions of people sitting at home thinking "I really want a big shooty robot game that's 3rd person and for some reason I am oblivious to Hawken - what should I do?!". PGI surely knows what it's doing!

Hawkin is a better 3rd person robot game. Much better.
MWO is for Mech Pilots. MWO is a better Mech Piloting game.
Do they have a plan for moving into an area that they do not have the best game for?
Or are they just going to abandon us in favor of Hawkins audience. Because, if that is the case and I ahve to choose between MWO Hawken and Hawken. I will probably choose Hawkin Hawkin. At least they know they are Hawkin.

[LordBraxton]

Thontor, on 09 May 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

It's not really a question of accuracy, but of representation. A poll of forum users does not necessarily represent the opinion of the game players because not all game players use the forums

and neither does the opposite argument. We have no way of polling the total community right now so we can't know either way.

yep, but it is not the only thing they rely on.

"completely" is innacurate, even on the forums where the majority was negative, even there, it was not completely negative.

There are lots of other places where they might get feedback too, and that feedback is no less relevant than feedback on the forums. And we have no idea how positive or negative the overall feedback about 3rd person is.

they aren't ignoring anything, but they have to weigh it against conflicting feedback from other sources, and make a decision... Not everyone will like that decision, but that will be the case no matter the decision they make....
In the end they have to decide what is best for them and their business... Maybe they made the wrong decision, maybe not... But forum users do not have all of the information necessary to make a judgement call on which it is. Time will tell.

you don't know that... You cant know that... They certainly aren't using the forums, or maybe they aren't even playing the game right now because it doesn't have 3rd person... When we are talking about total potential customers, there very likely is a large contingent of people that prefer 3rd person.

I disagree, a forum by its very nature is a microcosm of a gaming community.

People who spend time on a game's forum are simply the most dedicated\interested players.

If you polled even 5% of a given body. (In this case MWO fanbase)

And the poll showed numbers such as 5000 against and 300 for

There is no rational way to argue that this does not reflect the interests of the community.

This is simply how polls work, the great part about the internet being that these voters can vote from anywhere in the world, so its votes from every possible demographic of the fanbase.

There is no refuting this I'm sorry, we ran the vote, we saw the numbers,


Your whole argument is that of a skeptic, 'we can't know FOR SURE unless we somehow polled every player.'

This is true but unrealistic and inconsequential.

When 5000-6000 vote against and less than 500 vote for something, you have a solid answer.

You really couldnt ask for clearer results from a poll, especially an internet one.

Edited by LordBraxton, 09 May 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[Jestun]

Thontor, on 09 May 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

I would not be surprised if there are many people out there who have been fans of every mechwarrior game from 2 through 4...
But they just can't get into MWO because it's first person only and they prefer to play their mechwarrior games in third person.

Lets hope so. Because that's the gamble they are making.

[LordBraxton]

Jestun, on 09 May 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Lets hope so. Because that's the gamble they are making.

Mechwarrior fans are already here, they have already tried the game, and the real fans are already here on the forums.

There are no mechwarrior fans out there waiting for 3rd person to even give the game a try.

3rd person is a gamble to try and recruit NEW fans to the mechwarrior playerbase, people who have not been with the series except for **** titles like MechInsult. Or more likely never heard of mechwarrior.

This is a simple case of ******** on the bird in hand, to reach out for the 2 in the bush.

Sorry PGI the only birdie you are gonna get is the one in hand, better to nurture it than toss it aside to try and catch those other two.

Edited by LordBraxton, 09 May 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Thontor, on 09 May 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Disagree... Oh I couldn't disagree more...


Precisely, which is why they aren't representative of the whole playerbase



It reflects the interests of forum users for sure, but not necessarily the interest of all players.


Not every demographic of the fanbase visits the forums... We saw the numbers from the forum users only.




That's not what I'm saying at all. We can't know for sure unless we pull a representetive sample from the players.

The forum polls are not a representative sample. Simply because it only counts votes from people who choose to vote.


Someone posted a great link a while back about the innacuracy of Internet polls... I have no idea where it is. I wish I could find it.






You can't know that. And even if it were true, there may be mechwarrior fans who have it a try and stopped playing because it doesn't have a 3rd person camera available like the past 3 mechwarrior games and their expansions.



Of course they are trying to recruit new fans... What business doesn't want to get more customers?

And yeah, maybe some of them are MechAssault fans... Nothing wrong wih that... If letting them play in 3rd person helps them transition into a real mechwarrior game, that is great... The More converts the better.

Ok so Internet polls are not necessarily accurate.

We have a poll showing 5000-6000 vs ~400

So can we at least agree that the FORUM community is against 3rd person? If not the nebulous MWO community as a whole?

Atleast its something right?

And you don't go after NEW customers by spitting in the face of your current ones.

Bottom line is they sold us this game under the pretense shown in my signature.

3rd person breaks immersion on many levels and totally changes the game.

This kind of bait and switch behavior will upset a ton of vocal and hardcore fans.

There is no way ******* off the hardcore fans who bother to spend their time discussing MWO outside of the game arena(your true Beta testers giving feeedback), is a good idea for an in-development title.

Edited by LordBraxton, 09 May 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

There is no reason to make the assumption that, if we had a magically 100% accurate poll with every player and potential player that we would see anything different than 5000-400.

I agree, it could be different, it could be extremely different, but based off of this one fact, it would be illogical to assume that. This info does not indicate anything other than 5000-400. You can't assume its going to be to opposite off of that poll, but you can say that the sample size is too small (what is big enough?)

[Void Angel]

LordBraxton, on 09 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Mechwarrior fans are already here, they have already tried the game, and the real fans are already here on the forums.

There are no mechwarrior fans out there waiting for 3rd person to even give the game a try.

3rd person is a gamble to try and recruit NEW fans to the mechwarrior playerbase, people who have not been with the series except for **** titles like MechInsult. Or more likely never heard of mechwarrior.

This is a simple case of ******** on the bird in hand, to reach out for the 2 in the bush.

Sorry PGI the only birdie you are gonna get is the one in hand, better to nurture it than toss it aside to try and catch those other two.

Oh good grief; if I hear one more nerd-jock maunder on about "real fandom" and how any change they don't like is "spitting in their face," I'm going to be ill. You're not being done an injury; changes you don't like are not personal insults, and your attempt to reference yourself as an appeal to popular opinion (which is a fallacy to begin with) just boggles the mind.

In fact, we don't know exactly why PGI is making this change; unless I missed an announcement somewhere, they haven't told us. Frankly, there's no reason why they should - with people hijacking a thread about something else for 80+ pages to rail about the decision instead of doing something constructive. If half the people they see on the forums are going to accept the change, and the other half are going to scream incoherently and throw a temper tantrum of bitter invective and wild accusations no matter what... why explain anything? They'd just be throwing oil on the fire.

As has been pointed out to you over and over, and over, your argument assumes facts not in evidence - you are making claims about things you cannot possibly know. This makes your argument invalid, and ought to be a wake-up call to re-examine your position.

ICEFANG13, on 09 May 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

There is no reason to make the assumption that, if we had a magically 100% accurate poll with every player and potential player that we would see anything different than 5000-400.

I agree, it could be different, it could be extremely different, but based off of this one fact, it would be illogical to assume that. This info does not indicate anything other than 5000-400. You can't assume its going to be to opposite off of that poll, but you can say that the sample size is too small (what is big enough?)

The problem is, he's not assuming that - what Thontor is trying to point out is that we don't know either way - so making the opposite claim, that the forum polls represent the total customer base (including potential customers) is just as unreasonable as assuming that the real playerbase's opinion is opposite of the polls.