2002 replies to this topic

[GruenGruen]

he mechwarriors,

by reading the mass of posts concerning your most hated changements.
now 3dview.

honestly what is your worst fear about 3dview?

that the game will be much easier?
that horde of childrens will join mwo?
game will get totally mainstream?

or do you think you will lose your favorite masculine
field of representing manhood (especially for "older" ones).

Just calm down and enjoy the game instaed of complaining all the time.

and!! dont think we are all old adults playing mwo only.
I'm totally sure that half of our community is below 30 maybe under 20:)
and even my 12 years old child would play mwo if we would allow..-)

so cool down and enjoy the new stuff and dont forget fear is always shown in too much agression and hate speach.
PGI dont wanna steal your sweets,

[Moriquendi86]

Let me start by saying that I love current FPV, cockpit design (except for no signal on monitors), pilot animation and gameplay give incredible amount of immersion and is just fun to play.
Having said that I still want to have 3rd person view, looking at my mech would be cool and this would allow making really awesome videos in community (especially if would also get replays ). Also increasing player base will be awesome, first of all thats more targets to shoot at, it can also give more money to devs to continue making this game and add more awesome stuff we all want.

As for 3rd person view I think there two things equally important: implementation and introduction to community.

I think it's good idea to start introduction with training grounds and tutorials for gathering feedback. Next step would be separate queue "arcade" with 3rd person view enabled but without CBills, xp gain and no effect on statistics or achievements (when they will be added). Sort of pvp training ground for lolz. After that just wait and see how implementations works and if there is a place for it in competitive play or not.

As far as implementation goes there is also few things I'd like to point:

• Players should be able to switch between POV fluently, I can't imagine how 3rd person player only player would be able to aim at specific segment of enemy mech when his own mech is blocking the view. In the end IMO being forced to use one point of view for entire game would just create new problems for new players and keep them locked in single queue instead of teaching them how to master mechs and use first person view. Additional benefit from that would be dividing player base in to 2 queues instead of 3, with 3rd person view enabled or not.
  
• While I think that with all sensors, tag and relaying enemy positions between mechs, having camera advantage in 3rd person shouldn't be as huge imbalance as many people think in general gameplay. It still can be balanced by emulating cockpit line of sight for drawing enemy mechs in 3rd person view.
  How would this work? Here is an example (please ignore information warfare for a second), mech A is hiding behind a rock with cockpit facing that rock and trying to use 3rd person camera to check whats behind that rock, mech B is on the path behind that rock. In normal situation mech B would be visible to mech A just because camera line of sight but in this case game will check also cockpit line of sight for mech A and hide mech B from him as his vision is blocked by said rock. Now information warfare would nullify this effect but it works same way for both players so in the end it would be basically the same as it is now.
  IMO that would make a good balance between both views but needs good explanation for players.

[Oppi]

Nothing on the battlefield that would not be visible to a player from first person view (talking about enemy mechs and gunfire here, not the actual terrain ) should be rendered and shown to him when he switches to 3rd person. Including the Jenner standing right behind him and tearing up his back. In this case it might just be fair. Terribly immersion breaking, but fair.

[MustrumRidcully]

GruenGruen, on 22 March 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

he mechwarriors,

by reading the mass of posts concerning your most hated changements.
now 3dview.

honestly what is your worst fear about 3dview?

that the game will be much easier?
that horde of childrens will join mwo?
game will get totally mainstream?

or do you think you will lose your favorite masculine
field of representing manhood (especially for "older" ones).

Just calm down and enjoy the game instaed of complaining all the time.

and!! dont think we are all old adults playing mwo only.
I'm totally sure that half of our community is below 30 maybe under 20:)
and even my 12 years old child would play mwo if we would allow..-)

so cool down and enjoy the new stuff and dont forget fear is always shown in too much agression and hate speach.
PGI dont wanna steal your sweets,

That 3rd person view will be very advatageous and allow exploitive advantages in gameplay, due to being able to look behind obstacles and gain an improved situational awareness. Making it a neccesity for any type of competitive play.
That if it becomes an option to choose between pure 1st person or pure 3rd person that it will split the player base and have either the 1st person or the 3rd person player base too small and suffer, leading to these players being driven off.
Heck, I might even fear that some believe that 3rd person is a magical bullet to solve all noob-player problems the game have, and work on a decent tutorial and a good trial mech experience is not advanced sufficiently.

I very much hope we get all those hordes of children, that people will find the game easy to get into and it turns into a mainstream title and that M:WO and Battletech will continue to thrive and live for decades to come.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 March 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[3rdworld]

Mazzyplz, on 22 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

what?
Cod casuals?

do you realize Call of Duty has no 3rd person view?!?

Actually MW2 had 3rd person as an optional muliplayer style.

[etd]

Good post pgi. I was 100% against 3 person but this information has changed my opinion. It would be completely fair to players if implemented this way.

One thought.... "Other regions"... Please also launch this in North America too. I'd love to try this option out.

[Randalf Yorgen]

you know, sleeping on it and thinking about it as I actually read the forums here (yes someone actually does that) I had an idea. 3rd person will work in this game if it is used where you would actually expect to find it, ON SOLARIS 7 IN THE ARENAS! Think about it, the stables would have cameras following their jocks and it wouldn't take very much to stream that camera feed into the cockpit and TADA! you have 3rd person. Arenas also offer you the ability to scale player levels with entry level arenas for beginer players (new people just coming to the game so they can try it out) and four levels beyond that from Green Warrior to Vetran Warrior up through Elite Warrior to Champion Warrior level. This would also allow the new player a chance to generate some C-Bills and some XP-GXP (reduced levels because fo the enviroment (maybe, fl;exable on that)) and to try out different STOCK chassies. Higher level players could bring their own custom mechs if they wanted to but they would be the ones having to float the repair bills. THIS could bring a lot of old players back to the game and this could also seduce many new players to come as well. Have players who are willing set up and manage the leagues (believe me it's already happening, look at the Marik Civil War action that is being done by the players in that faction, carving planets, setting unit on unit with Merc support. Generating fluff and history and maintaining a leaderboard and so much more.) run them. I'm fairly sure you could get some of them to do it for the low cost of FREE if you actually asked and listened to what they had to say. This also allows for a safe divide (fracturing) of the player base as those who want to "Fight the IS" could still be out and fighting hardcore for the worlds (Meta Game) and those who wanted to be uber jocks could strut their stuff in the Arena. Even the lore of the BT/MW universe states that arena fighters had great dificulty in fighting a real fight as there was a huge difference between the two fighting styles.

I remember posting stuff like this not quite a year ago after I recieved my invite to the closed Beta (pre founders inception) and it seemed like a dead issue as not one dev replied back then. This could be the way forward for you guys, it might be the only way forward for you guys. Remember it's never a good idea to slaughter the cash cow AND the goose that lays the golden egg if you have nothing else to fall back on and guys, although it's been getting better, the gound you are standing on is still very thin.

[Vassago Rain]

Please keep on target, and don't make this about anything that's not directly related to the third person issue.

[Ilwrath]

I know what they are going to do. How this crap is going to end up. They are going to finally make a pure pubbie que and then screw all pubbies over by making that que open for 3rd person view.

That will be the end of this 3rd person fiasco.

[CDLord HHGD]

Can we get a sketch or something to indicate the direction you are going with third person? I'm a visual person and being able to see helps me to understand. The most notable concern I have with third person is field of view. And if you bring their perspective close enough to make it a similar FoV that we have (ie, no sight behind, etc) then their mech will be blocking a good deal of their vision in front.....

I'm interested in a 3rd person "free look" so I can marvel at my mech and all it's glory, but from my experience with other games that have 3rd person views, it provides a significant advantage. Before I start swinging around my lorehammer (term I coined while I watched Mythic and EA destroy Warhammer Online), I want to see what you guys have cooked up. Lets see and analyze before we naysay (though that may still be the result).

[Vassago Rain]

Ilwrath, on 22 March 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

I know what they are going to do. How this crap is going to end up. They are going to finally make a pure pubbie que and then screw all pubbies over by making that que open for 3rd person view.

That will be the end of this 3rd person fiasco.

This is one of several critical issues.

The players who play for keeps don't want 3rd person, as it removes most of the skill, for this one flawless tactic you must practice. It's not fun to watch, and not fun to play. These are the players with the most money. the 'whale,' so to speak.

The publars don't want to be owned by third person tarters. They're even more vulnerable, because 99% of them aren't dedicated to the game. Putting tarters in the ghetto makes all of these people leave, or forces them into tarting - which is boring, so then they leave for a better game.

You can't run a 'competitive' game with only ever one strategy, and cash items for benefits, that are so important, there's no way around it. E-sporters and the hardcore thus aren't interested in it.

Managers will have to do what Bryan's been tasked with, that is, the impossible. He must come up with a way to fit it in without chasing off any of these three. In the end, this pleases no one, and is a textbook example of a can of worms.

I can list so many better ways to open the game to the 'mass market,' and the 'casual audience,' but 3rd person was picked. Everybody involved here knows what it does, and why we can't have it. It's a sign of desperation, or corporate sabotage. Take your pick.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 22 March 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[Chief 117]

OH, COME ON! We don't need 3rd person, I can't think a single way how to implement a 3rd person view without it giving a massive advantage

Ok, I believe that the ONLY way to make it balanced is to COMPLETELY remove ALL hud from the 3rd person. So that means that the player in 3rd person can't target, can't aim, can't see his map, can't use vision modes, can't see ANYTHING expect for his mech and his surroundings. THIS is the ONLY reasonable way to make it work.

Edited by Chief 117, 22 March 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[deranda]

3rd Person is §($/ZQ(Z§? and will most likely make me quit the game financially (will probably stay to play casually, but spending more money? Never) if it isn't executed in a really really good way, so here are 2 cents to be constructive:

To stay true to the notion of 3rd person as a tool to make beginners grasp the gameplay better (even though it's really hard to take anything that PGI is saying as even remotely honest atm) 3rd person in public games (and CW in the long run) should only be possible in something like a "beginner's league" (really just term I use for match making mechanisms) where only new players and low-ELO players should meet in combat independent of whether they are using 1st or 3rd person. After gaining enough ELO points to no longer be matched against "beginners" 3rd person should no longer be an option (which should be communicated very clearly to not take any player by surprise).
This way 3rd person might help some beginners to get into the game while still offering incentive to master 1st person rather than relying on 3rd person only.

Of course, an option to use 3rd person in training grounds and custom matches (after implemented) won't hurt anyone either.

Well, that was me trying to be constructive...

[Xandar]

I can think of two options that might work out.

1) skip 3'rd person, add a real-time model of the mech somewhere in the cockpit or on a monitor, this will show the units orientation and direction of movement instantly. You could get 'fancy' and highlight weapon ports that are 'clear' at 10 meters out from any terrain on this model. You know have conveyed all the reasonable information to the user without 'breaking' first person. Also consider outfitting a 'butt cam' or even a directional periscope camera feed (no higher POV than AMS currently to prevent hill humpers having a large advantage) on one of the ubiquitous secondary monitors, you could even link this to a module slot to have a cost for this benefit. LRM and snipers may want it, a brawler/scout might not.

2) allow third person, do not draw weapon fire (only impacts on your mech) or mechs on the area outside of normal field of view. If there is a way to show what your 'active' field of view is do so, some sort of opacity/transparency overlay on the 'non realtime areas of the view. If you have a target lock you can show a enemy 'pip' (or placeholder pyramid etc.) outside the field of view and as target information becomes available replace with a 'ghost' model with high transparency (representing that you still do not have 'eyes' on target), showing movement rate/direction, but not torso orientation. This view is still slightly advantaged as it allows you to see the terrain around a corner or over a hill, but doesn't confer the 'godcam' information you get with the magic 3'd person view since the truly useful information is hidden. I think it will also subtly encourage people to place 1st person after they get comfortable with understanding torso/leg orientation since you won't have the situational awareness crutch/bonus that all prior implementations of 3rd person provide.

I think item 1 is relatively simple and could be added in short term to help out new players, with the periscope item being something quite delayable. Item 2 is a long term and I think technically challenging option that will satisfy the first person only crowd and will negate the need to split the player-base.

Edited by Xandar, 22 March 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Darth Locutus of Borg]

I will be honest, the only reason I want third person view is so I can check that my missile flaps are open or not on my stalker.

[3rdworld]

3rd person could be done in a way to enhance gameplay, show off paint, and not devide the userbase.

For instance:

a 3rd person view of the mech is located in the top right corner. You can toggle between views but shooting while in 3rd is much more difficult read: less accurate. Of course 3rd person would need to not allow a user to see around blind corners. Making this info blurry or not draw enemy mechs would be ideal.

Mechs in lore can see in 360 degrees. implementing a small view screen that allows you to see targets directly behind, would be lore friendly and not game breaking assuming the distance is less than 20m or so. This distance could be increased while using 3rd person assuming accuracy degradation is greater than the increased visibility.

Do I believe this is a route they would take? no.
Do I believe they could implement 3rd person without needing to separate the user base? no.

[Springbok]

If 3D view is a given:

1. Allow 3D against 3D and 1PV against 1PV options only - do not mix and match modes or allow switching in-game between the modes. As stated it could have dire logistical implications for CW and would prevent abuse.

2. 3D mode can be the "easy mode" for MWO with bigger target pips, ID boxes etc. much like you can do with DCS: Black Shark to allow new players to settle into the game.

2. Not sure how CW mechanics would work - but surely CW battles fought in 3D only mode should carry a much lower weighting towards reaching objectives, points etc. than 1PV.

[TimTheEnchantor]

I was thinking of a few things in addition to my original post, that some people who advocate 3rd-person for to consider:

Here's a couple scenarios:

When we have sniper lances whose job it is to provide suppressing fire on the enemy mech, the third-person view negates it. You know how in River City if you are behind the buildings and your team gets pinned down by sniper fire? It sucks, but it's part of the game. To peek out and try and get around the sniper fire is what really makes a squad stand out; it also brings suspense to the game. What if someone has third person? Oh, no worries. Just stay back and let's call out enemy targets we know are advancing on our position.

In another instance, you are a Catapult and are firing LRMs at an enemy team. You go to move, so you turn your torso to get to a new location. Walking through Frozen city and you turn a snow bluff but suddenly there's an Atlas walking right in front of you. He turns and you know if you don't move, you will die. That feeling of dread as you try to move away. Third person? You see him before you turn fully so you just go a different direction. The 'shock and awe' of the Atlas never happens and you are able to escape, as you see him before he really can surprise you.

I know these scenarios are relatively niche - but they are the scenarios that make me enjoy the game the most. I like that type of feeling where if I make a mistake advancing too fast or too slow I am penalized because I don't have a 360-degree view (or close to it) of the area around me.

Now, I agree that if 3rd-person had no HUD at all. I *may* be fine with it. But it provides such a tactical advantage that there will always be a requirement to use it.

One thing they keep bringing up is the fact that new players have a hard time adjusting to the controls of the mech. Now, I am no expert pilot and still make some rookie mistakes with my aiming. Want people to pick the game up quicker? Implement a proper tutorial. All this could be avoided if they developed the tutorial first, even if people who already knew how to play didn't use it. Because the point of a tutorial is to pull new players into the game and using the controls properly.

So what is the tutorial now? A set of YouTube videos narrated and produced by NoGutsNoGalaxy (the podcast). So, they rely on volunteers to do their job for them all the while -- PGI has been investing art and systems to support the business model but forget that to keep people playing and paying they need to have the proper systems in place. They need to have a proper tutorial in place to keep those new players from leaving. It just baffles the mind that in any developer meeting, they chose to go the route of just putting an arena-style system in place before building the foundation of the game to retain players or at least provide the base to keep the top of the pyramid (the parts of the game that people pay real money for) from toppling over.

Edited by TimTheEnchantor, 22 March 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Yankee77]

Personally I would be satisfied if mechs you cannot see in 1st person remain hidden while in 3rd person.

But if 3rd person allows players to peek over cover and see their enemies, then it's pretty much broken (and at the very least something will NEED to be done to mitigate poptarting, which will become significantly more effective).

Thank you.

[Ilwrath]

Darth Locutus of Borg, on 22 March 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I will be honest, the only reason I want third person view is so I can check that my missile flaps are open or not on my stalker.

You can just turn your view sideways and there is a light that is Green (open) or not (closed)

I am not sure that the flaps are animated on the stalker. Anyone knows?

Itkovian, on 22 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Personally I would be satisfied if mechs you cannot see in 1st person remain hidden while in 3rd person.

This brings back memories about World of Tanks los mechanisms. Oh God!