2002 replies to this topic

[Ilwrath]

Darth Locutus of Borg, on 22 March 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I will be honest, the only reason I want third person view is so I can check that my missile flaps are open or not on my stalker.

You can just turn your view sideways and there is a light that is Green (open) or not (closed)

I am not sure that the flaps are animated on the stalker. Anyone knows?

Itkovian, on 22 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Personally I would be satisfied if mechs you cannot see in 1st person remain hidden while in 3rd person.

This brings back memories about World of Tanks los mechanisms. Oh God!

[Vassago Rain]

Springbok, on 22 March 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

If 3D view is a given:

1. Allow 3D against 3D and 1PV against 1PV options only - do not mix and match modes or allow switching in-game between the modes. As stated it could have dire logistical implications for CW and would prevent abuse.

2. 3D mode can be the "easy mode" for MWO with bigger target pips, ID boxes etc. much like you can do with DCS: Black Shark to allow new players to settle into the game.

2. Not sure how CW mechanics would work - but surely CW battles fought in 3D only mode should carry a much lower weighting towards reaching objectives, points etc. than 1PV.

Teaching people one thing, and making the core game something else, won't accomplish anything. This entire 3rd person deal is a can of worms.

[3rdworld]

Itkovian, on 22 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Personally I would be satisfied if mechs you cannot see in 1st person remain hidden while in 3rd person.

But if 3rd person allows players to peek over cover and see their enemies, then it's pretty much broken (and at the very least something will NEED to be done to mitigate poptarting, which will become significantly more effective).

Thank you.

I am not sure about the effects on poptarting. You would not have as clear of idea of altitude looking down over the top of the mech. When I tart I know how high I must jump over the precipice in order for my shots to not hit the dirt. That would probably be harder in 3rd person view.

[DukeDublin]

Deadset on implementing third-person sounds like a great idea for a tutorial-aid. If you're concerned about new players being able to control their mechs; why not add an indepth tutorial. Heck even a cadet queue would help why not add that later on?

Trial mechs should never have more than 3 weapon groupings/ranges, it severly impedes learning (especially in a players first match). From my own experiences, when teaching a new player only 10% of them check the controls first (they assume the controls will be self-explainitory). New player hints (little pop-ups) would be a great addition.

I have seen the first-person/third-person fiasco go on in the game Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. It was implemented for the same reasons PGI is willing to implement it. People enjoy it and overall it did what they wanted. However it worked because of dedicated servers, the competitive scene quickly banned the use of third-person.

One need to cater to two areas, a casual demographic that is too diluted to form an consensus & the more competitive crowd that desires formality and structure. Two queues, one with limitations and one with as much consumer freedom as possible.

[Vassago Rain]

DukeDublin, on 22 March 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Deadset on implementing third-person sounds like a great idea for a tutorial-aid. If you're concerned about new players being able to control their mechs; why not add an indepth tutorial. Heck even a cadet queue would help why not add that later on?

Trial mechs should never have more than 3 weapon groupings/ranges, it severly impedes learning (especially in a players first match). From my own experiences, when teaching a new player only 10% of them check the controls first (they assume the controls will be self-explainitory). New player hints (little pop-ups) would be a great addition.

I have seen the first-person/third-person fiasco go on in the game Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. It was implemented for the same reasons PGI is willing to implement it. People enjoy it and overall it did what they wanted. However it worked because of dedicated servers, the competitive scene quickly banned the use of third-person.

One need to cater to two areas, a casual demographic that is too diluted to form an consensus & the more competitive crowd that desires formality and structure. Two queues, one with limitations and one with as much consumer freedom as possible.

But then we have the issue of the new players in the ghetto not spending any money, while they get ruined by poptarters, and only those who premade up are the spenders, and they're refusing to use the feature.

Then why did we spend all that time adding it to the game in the first place?

[glunkr]

I think the most reasonable thing is to release 3PV in training grounds to actually give us something to try before judgment is passed.

[Kdogg788]

1. Ideally 3rd Person view should be confined to the training grounds. I would use it to see how my machines interact with the terrain and what my camo schemes look like in contrast to different maps.
2. If 3rd Person is implemented in game play, 3PV users should not be able to pick who they battle. They fight only 3rds by default.
3. The 1st Person view user should decide whether they want to be in a game that involves 3rd Person view mechs. I'm guessing that a great majority will say no.

-k

[jay35]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Here are the facts
[...]

• Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person.

[...]







You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.
  
• Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.

Sounds fair, but it's going to fragment the community over something trivial and unimportant (3PV) rather than saving fragmentation for something necessary like Game Modes or Map Types. If only you guys were willing to do the same thing for maps by providing us a Map Type filter next to the Game Mode filter. ([] Small, [] Medium, [] Large. Check the sizes you wish to play on.) That would actually IMPROVE the existing experience by alleviating a lot of disconnects, which are from players who are tired of playing Large maps or only want to play Large maps, etc, which would improve the match experience for everyone. Even better would be replacing the map sizes with the map names, and allowing players to filter out the specific maps they don't want to play on. But perhaps that would be too much extra work for the matchmaker.

But then, how is fragmenting the community over the various 3PV settings you outlined above, not doing precisely the same thing, and over a function 90% of the active community doesn't even want to exist?

Sounds very much like you're wasting your key fragmentation opportunity (because you have to keep those to a minimum) on something almost no one wants to begin with. That's a scary prospect.

Tip: If you want to do the least damage possible to the community via fragmentation, you would have to limit it to only one split: 3PV and 1PV, rather than further muddying the waters with 1PV playing against both 3PV and 1PV, 1PV playing against 1PV only, 3PV playing against 3PV only, etc. Each of those separate queues is a fragmentation. The more of those that exist, the harder time the matchmaker will have creating matches, and the more important it becomes that we get rid of the random match mechanic and replace it with proper dedicated servers and user-led lobby/match creation system.

Edited by jay35, 22 March 2013 - 05:33 AM.

[xengk]

question.
How do we even know that the person we are fighting against is in 3rd person or 1st person?
Is there like a floating icon above their mech?

[Vassago Rain]

xengk, on 22 March 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

question.
How do we even know that the person we are fighting against is in 3rd person or 1st person?
Is there like a floating icon above their mech?

These are all part of the 24 year old problem that's 3rd person in a competitive shooting game, Bryan wants a solution to it, because he's been tasked to come up with one.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 22 March 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Springbok]

Kdogg788, on 22 March 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

1. Ideally 3rd Person view should be confined to the training grounds. I would use it to see how my machines interact with the terrain and what my camo schemes look like in contrast to different maps.
2. If 3rd Person is implemented in game play, 3PV users should not be able to pick who they battle. They fight only 3rds by default.
3. The 1st Person view user should decide whether they want to be in a game that involves 3rd Person view mechs. I'm guessing that a great majority will say no.

-k

I could live with your suggestions except for point 3 - the modes should definitively not be able to mix...I can already see the QQ between the 1st person vs.3d person pundits on the forums.

[PirateNixon]

Bryan,

The biggest concerns are balance, and community fragmentation. Someone has already addressed community warfare, and you've said there will be an option to select if we face people with different view modes than us. It has been my experience in similar games that first person view presents an advantage in longer range engagements but third person presents a significant advantage in close quarters combat. It has also been my experience as a player in MWO that a vast majority of fighting occures inside 270m, which I'd consider close range. Do you plan to allow players in the "all view modes" bracket to switch so they can utilize the most effective view mode for the situation, or will it be a make your choice and live with it type situation (if you've already answered this, I apologize there are 20+ pages at this point and my break isn't long enough to read it all)? If you intend to fix the players to a given view, then in my opinion, the third person camera should be rigidly fixed in a manner similar to the first person camera to help balance.

[Jeff K Notagoon]

I'm not against 3rd person but I am against further splitting the queue. Anyone who's played 8man queue can tell you how bad it is to get put up against the exact same team 5, 6, 7, etc. times in a row simply because nobody else is playing on the queue.

[PirateNixon]

MonkeyCheese, on 22 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Still dont understand why 3rd person is needed, If someone dosnt like that this game is about looking out the eyes of a mechwarrior in a stompy robot then this game is NOT for that person.

It is lost effort that is better spent elsewhere in MWOs development, stop trying to make us leave.

Their objective obviously isn't to make you leave. They are trying to attract a larger audience to the game, which will be good for all players if it is done correctly. More players means more income for PGI, which means more development. They've already said you'll be able to lock your gameplay down to only other players in first person, so if you "don't want those third person kids on your yard" so to speak, then don't play with them...

[Kotsuno]

I agree with previous posts saying to restrict it to training grounds - after all, isn't the intent of 3rd person to allow a new pilot to understand the orientation of their mech?

I don't believe it should be integrated in any way into the core competitive aspect of the game: you have, since the inception of MWO, pushed it as a first person sim/shooter. Why destroy that vision by introducing a mechanic that exists in antipode of everything you have promised us?

[assiprinz]

(Stay tuned for constructive feedback)

After way too many posts about demographics (seriously???) of third person perspective, I don't see the problem any more. Everyone is free to choose whether he wants to play in or against 3rd person. There is absolutely no point in complaining. Yes, people can choose to use 3rd, and may eventually be able to choose to play against 1st person pilots. But they will only be able to play against those 1st person pilots that are ok with playing against 3rd person people.

So all the complaints are just not true. You don't want 3rd person in the game, you are free to play it completely 3rd person free. Where. the. hell. is. your. problem?

I always liked the touch of a simulation in MW games, and an external view is simply something that belongs into a sim. And if we are all freet o choose, so be it.

(constructive feedback starts here ->)

I understand that people in 3rd person view may use that camera perspective to peek around corners and stuff without their mech being visible ... nevertheless, they would have to rotate their cockpit away from the point they want to look at, and back to there afterwards.

I would suggest and like an implementation like this:

third person camera, floating at some point behind and above the mech. Give it full HUD. Otherwise the desired effect of appealing to new and unexperienced players would not be existant.

Furthermore, I could imagine an option to freelook around the mech (perhaps with a view modificator like the ctrl key in the cockpit). In this case, the HUD should be hidden, and should take some time to display again after the look returned to 'standard' 3rd person (perhaps a flickering restart animation of the hud). This would give a penalty for excessively using it to peek around corners or behind (as it is an important factor of MW that the mechs cannot look back and have no sensors there).

Balancing of the freelook could also be achieved through applying filters (e.g. depth of field, on the other hand this would be kind of a ****** if made too strong), or cinematic effects like scanlines (think of a drone w/ camer flying around the mech with non-optimal image quality streaming to the cockpit).

There are loads of things that can be done to balance this feature out, and although I am playing exclusively in 1st person view, I would simply love having the option to do great pictures of my own mech ingame without hud or stuff like that. Plus, we are one step further towards actual game replays and spectator modes and sh**, think about the possibilities, not about the 2 extra deaths you get through 3rd person view (which you don't get, anyway).

[Lyrik]

3rd person would be amazing for all the persons who love to paint their mechs. But a poor implentation and your esport ideas are dead.

No free floating camera. Low angle.

No 3rd person view in 8vs8 or tournaments. Or in all the competitive games.

[Tennex]

M4rtyr, on 21 March 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

See the problem with this is it delutes the player base into 2 seperate pools which impact how quickly you find matches and how well balanced they are. While -NOT- being a guarantee of actually gaining a larger market.

It's a bad idea, period.

so do game modes. see the 1st and 3rd person as different game modes.

and it should be implemented like a game mode. select 1st or 3rd person game mode before searching game.

group up or solo > select mech > select game mode > select modern/classic > search game

Edited by Tennex, 22 March 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[Grayseven]

Ensure that everything that has an effect on a player in 1st person has the same effect in third person.

So if someone is taking a laser to the head or getting peppered by AC fire, they should suffer the same visual impairment a 1st person pilot takes.

Do not allow the use of in-cockpit visual **** such as Night and Thermal vision. If they aren't inside, they shouldn't be using it.

Do not allow HUD elements. You want to target something, you'd best be inside and not looking remotely at your mech.

Basically, 3rd person takes away everything this game is about. You turn it into WoW in battlemechs. Your thought that this will expand the player base seems weak. It will instead divide the player base, reducing available opponents to one of two factions.

[Mild Monkey]

Look, guys, the company needs the money. Money is the raison d'etre of a company, the product is the means to ensure the influx of money. Money in our case is mostly generated by new players and high DAU/MAU values, not by core players. So it is a very good business decision to introduce this option for new ppl, encouraging them to spend some money on the game.

As for the gameplay: I am not going to use it and as long as I am not forced to play against those people using 3rd PV, the way Bryan has stated, no problem.