2001 replies to this topic

[Maliconus]

Haters are going to Hate.. I Hate 3rd person.

No matter how many time the same three people post hows its a great idea it is not going to change my mind.

Just to clarify..... I HATE 3RD PERSON....That is all

[DirePhoenix]

Roadbeer, on 26 March 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Snarky much? Just asking for a clarification of your data.

No snark, I was clarifying the data. Pages/Threadsize/Volume has no correlation to position. Your assumption that I first responded to was that 50 pages had an implication as to how the community feels toward a subject. It does not.

Your second post was asking if the figures meant that 35% hated the idea, with increasing grades of how much they hated the idea, and the rest being less degrees of hating the idea. Again this is the wrong interpretation, as I've said post count has no correlation toward any sort of stance. It simply means how loud you are.

At that time, 3 people were making up nearly a quarter of the volume of this thread just by themselves. Those three people do not constitute a quarter of the community. To believe that the size of this thread or the amount of responses it gets has any correlation to the stance of even the participating members of this forum (who don't even correlate to the actual playerbase of this game) is an error compounded upon itself.

To clarify further, screaming louder and more frequently (to the point where people can't see anything except your opinion) doesn't make your opinion any more valid. It just makes you loud.

Roadbeer, on 26 March 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Screen shot or it didn't happen.

Ok, but remember I tried to spare you the shame of not being able to figure this out for yourself:

Spoiler

Click This:



Get This:

See? We all have the tools right here on this forum, right in front of our eyes. I wonder what other features you may refuse to believe exist because you didn't try exploring a bit.

[Mystere]

Fut, on 26 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Alright, so what besides some sort of physical limitation would cause some one to be unable to correctly perceive MWO in it's current state?

Edit:

All I'm saying, is that not everybody is capable of doing everything. Whether it's something physical, mental, or something else - some people can't do some things. This is a fact of life.

To lower the game to a point were all people are able to play is a bad idea. For most of the people who are currently playing the game will be too watered down to be enjoyable.

I doubt PGI is opening up the game to "all" people. Their goal is to "lower the bar" to allow more people to come in and enjoy. And it does not have to take the "dumbing down" approach. You do not have to give up the way you want to play. But, it might be possible to provide options to allow other people to play the same game their way. And this is where that dreaded word comes in again: balance. The key is finding the proper balance.

And just saying one or more of the following:

• No I Hate it!
  
• It's horrible!
  
• That is dumb!
  
• Separate us from those console kiddies!
  
• I don't want to play with those old geezers!

is the wrong approach.






What can be done? Here are just two (and no, they are not mutually exclusive) of many:

• improve the HUD
  
• introduce third person view

Since we're already on the thread for 3PV, I will talk about something else.





How can the HUD be improved? I have one suggestion, make it user-configurable by allowing players to:

• move HUD elements around
  
• resize and recolor HUD elements
  
• set text fonts and colors

And yes, if 3PV will also have a HUD, then the above also apply.

DirePhoenix, on 26 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

See? We all have the tools right here on this forum, right in front of our eyes. I wonder what other features you may refuse to believe exist because you didn't try exploring a bit.

I've been busted!

Edited by Mystere, 26 March 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[BlueSanta]

Bryan, while the majority of your players never visit, post, or read the forums (reasons for which we could go back and forth about, too), thousands do. These players are many of your core users; founders or people like me who have been playing since day one of open beta. I have played almost 3,700 games since then and spent over $250. That’s an amount of money I didn’t really have to blow on a video game, but I did because I want this game to succeed and I love Mechwarrior. Your founders gave you even more—5 million dollars.

While that doesn’t make us honorary employees of PGI who can boss you around, we are all minor investors who together should be respected if we respect you, asked for our input, and have our input valued. Please note that this is different from a lot of the whining and rage that goes on on these forums from newbs and trolls. There are also thoughtful discussions. Unfortunately, many of them have been only between members and not between members and you.

Let’s be honest about the fact that you didn’t come to this community first about third-person view. You replied to a Twitter post, then once a big enough fuss was made, you started a topic to “collect all of the concerns and ideas that this group faces or has with 3rd person.” However, you clearly stated at the start of that topic that we could not discuss whether or not the community even wants third-person view. If your core community, the people you have been with you from the beginning and opened their wallets to you, don’t want a feature, why would you force it upon them? That’s a waste of time and resources on your part and shows that you don’t care what we think. If you don’t care, why have the forums?What motivation is there for me to continue to post? Why should I give you any more money?

The new user experience is poor not because they don’t have access to third-person view. It’s because there is no in-game voice, there is no tutorial level, and they are forced to play terrible trial mechs at first. I remember when I was in high school and bought Counter-Strike. Right out of the box I could play a tutorial level and listen to other players strategize. I also wasn’t limited to a selection of poor weapons. You are isolating players with no in-game voice and forcing them to learn how to play in either a live match or an unhelpful training ground. Quite frankly, you have shafted the new, inexperienced player.

I am glad that no one is currently working on third-person view because no one should be. There are a lot of things you need to put in place still for the new user before you make the judgment that third-person view must be implemented. MWO is supposed to be an immersive experience, and that means seeing combat from a first-person view. The only exceptions should be in a theater mode for replays and in-game from a UAV (a piece of intelligence warfare you mentioned originally).

Please stop breaking our trust in you by implementing things you said you wouldn’t (coolant) or things the community has clearly stated it doesn’t want (third-person). Please ask us what we’d like to see implemented or fixed and how and why before you begin work (you could have done this with ECM last fall and saved a lot of fuss). Please do things logically and efficiently. You could be using this community as a helpful resource instead of ignoring and exploiting us.

[Roadbeer]

DirePhoenix, on 26 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

No snark, I was clarifying the data. Pages/Threadsize/Volume has no correlation to position. Your assumption that I first responded to was that 50 pages had an implication as to how the community feels toward a subject. It does not.

Your second post was asking if the figures meant that 35% hated the idea, with increasing grades of how much they hated the idea, and the rest being less degrees of hating the idea. Again this is the wrong interpretation, as I've said post count has no correlation toward any sort of stance. It simply means how loud you are.

At that time, 3 people were making up nearly a quarter of the volume of this thread just by themselves. Those three people do not constitute a quarter of the community. To believe that the size of this thread or the amount of responses it gets has any correlation to the stance of even the participating members of this forum (who don't even correlate to the actual playerbase of this game) is an error compounded upon itself.

To clarify further, screaming louder and more frequently (to the point where people can't see anything except your opinion) doesn't make your opinion any more valid. It just makes you loud.

[/size]

Ok, but remember I tried to spare you the shame of not being able to figure this out for yourself:

Spoiler

Click This:



Get This:

See? We all have the tools right here on this forum, right in front of our eyes. I wonder what other features you may refuse to believe exist because you didn't try exploring a bit.

Thank you for saving me the effort. Haven't used those tools, handy feature

[RoboPatton]

I really wouldn't mind third person so much, if mechs had a rear-view camera in them...

Really, my 2009 Chevy has one, wtf not a giant mech? just, bothers me.

[Twisted Power]

If you make it so that any sort of CW and ranked matches are only 1st person, then you could safely implement 3rd person view without people complaining about game balance.

It could just be used in random matches that do not affect CW and in private games that people can make.

Edited by Twisted Power, 26 March 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Havok1978]

DCM Zeus, on 21 March 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

No link, so your trolling.

considering you post every 4 posts or so, who is trolling who?

A LOT of really good ideas get repeatedly denied or shot down around here becuse they dont fit certian peoples "ideal game" parameters, its getting a bit ridiculous.
Players and Dev's alike love to use "its a beta" or "it will fragment the player base" as popular excuses to shoot other peoples ideas down that dont fit thier own personal agenda's, this is folly.

I LIKED mech assault... I also LIKED each and every Mechwarrior game I played. Not all of them were the same and they shouldnt be, GET OVER IT. Play the games YOU personally like and leave the rest of us to try something new.

consumables will ruin the game, i'll quit if they put consumables in the game, and yet... they didnt ruin the game and no one quit..

it IS true that PGI doesnt listen to thier community anymore as they dont really need us cuz the guys that handle the financing models are running the show now. However, whacking the dev's with bats and threatening to quit isnt going to change that.
These are things that override what the devs wanted to do and intended to do.
The countless threads expressing the desires of the community have been largely ignored/deleted/redacted so continuing to ***** at every chance you can is pretty pointless.
As a player you have the choice to either A) quit or continue to play. At this point you will do one or the other. more than likely 80% of us have something we absolutely LOVE and HATE about the game and will continue to play reguardless.

Bryan asked for input reguarding 3rd person view and needs some ideas, THIS is your chance as a player to influence the game. More or less. If you dont have anything then feel free to grab a cryengine SDK kit and write your own mech combat game.

personally, I like the ideas in the OP, 3PV vs 3PV, 1PV vs 1PV, or mixed mode is THE best way to do this via a selectable filter.

We need Lobbies tho to implement this, /nudge
<see what I did there?>

Diversity does not fragment the player base, It promotes growth.
However I hear mechwarrior 2 is still being played quite well and there is also MW:LL for those folks who want those games they ARE in fact still availible.

Back to "beta testing" for me

[Roadbeer]

Hey guys, just wanted to see if that elephant finished all the peanuts. I could kind of use a snack.

HOLY COW, look at all that excrement.

[Zeus X]

And PGI wonders why the community goes ballistic.



You know, that whole lack of communication and that HUGE elephant just standing there, WOW THAT THING IS HUGE!

[Reggimus]

Duncan Longwood, on 21 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

I know it will allow dead ghost-riders to relay intel back to their remaining team with their vastly expanded ability to read the battlefield. It will be possible to have the first player dead take over the MechCommander role and cycle through your remaining teammates 100 degree plus viewing angle, directing the battle over comms.

Ever snuck up behind a stalker in your spider, while staying in his blind spot, as he ignores the fact you are peeling the armor off his back because every time he looks around he can't find who is shooting him? That was an awesome experience to have in my spider... after having been on the receiving end in my stalker. This won't be possible with third-person view.

These are 2 major issues I can see as well.
It's all well and good disabling chat for dead people, but if they are on voice-coms (vent or what ever) it makes no difference as they can still tell there lance-mates.

Idea of solution: dead people go to 1stPV

Taking the time to sneak up behind someone and shoot them in the back will not yeild the same results it does now, from a 3rdPV you will see the direction lazors etc are fired from and know where behind you they are, including elevation from the angles.

Idea of solution: Do not render on-screen anything fired from behind the 'mech, just the damage it causes on the back (I know, dammed near impossible, but its the only way to make flanking, scouting and general sneakiness viable).

[Tomo3 14]

3rd person ? Really ? Well , in 3rd person will be less special atmosphere , than 1st person . I dont want to talk about balance , its long conversation , but it will be not so interesting and it will be much easier - you want more arcade MWO ? i dont think so ... Everyone , who want arcade in fight of mechs can go in arcade "hawken" . More children , less adults . I play in MWO because 1) You need to think for win 2) Small mech can kill BIG mech 3) Many adult people in community . I dont know other game with all this 3 points , and this why im play in MWO .

[LordBraxton]

Roadbeer, on 25 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

This is a little disingenuous of ALL the games around, the sole reason you bought in to this game was that it was 1PV? Not the concept, genre or aesthetics? The ONLY reason you bought in was because it was first person?

Look, I've made my point clear of how vehemently I'm against 3PV, but seriously people...

Adding third person changes the game on a huge fundamental level.

If they never said ANYTHING about 3rd person I wouldnt be able to complain nearly so loud

HOWEVER, they said it went against the pillars of their game design, (which is true) and it does not get much more definitive then that.

I spent all the money I did with the safe knowledge that this was a FPS

now they are telling me I spent my money on a 3rd person action shooter the whole time

that's a full genre shift within gaming don't you get that?

it really WILL effect the game that much. I dont care about their promises to FURTHER divide the community, after they already plan to break up the game based on region

Reggimus, on 26 March 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

These are 2 major issues I can see as well.
It's all well and good disabling chat for dead people, but if they are on voice-coms (vent or what ever) it makes no difference as they can still tell there lance-mates.

Idea of solution: dead people go to 1stPV

Taking the time to sneak up behind someone and shoot them in the back will not yeild the same results it does now, from a 3rdPV you will see the direction lazors etc are fired from and know where behind you they are, including elevation from the angles.

Idea of solution: Do not render on-screen anything fired from behind the 'mech, just the damage it causes on the back (I know, dammed near impossible, but its the only way to make flanking, scouting and general sneakiness viable).

THIS THIS THIS THIS

and this is just the tip of the iceberg, the %0.3 of the community defending the devs decision here just aren't looking past their fanboi glasses.

Edited by LordBraxton, 26 March 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

Reggimus, on 26 March 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

These are 2 major issues I can see as well.
It's all well and good disabling chat for dead people, but if they are on voice-coms (vent or what ever) it makes no difference as they can still tell there lance-mates.

Idea of solution: dead people go to 1stPV

Taking the time to sneak up behind someone and shoot them in the back will not yeild the same results it does now, from a 3rdPV you will see the direction lazors etc are fired from and know where behind you they are, including elevation from the angles.

Idea of solution: Do not render on-screen anything fired from behind the 'mech, just the damage it causes on the back (I know, dammed near impossible, but its the only way to make flanking, scouting and general sneakiness viable).

On the first idea "dead people go to 1stPV": We have hit indicators in our neurohelmets that tell you if you're getting hit from behind, and at what angle you're being shot at already. Are you not using them?

On the second idea for not rendering objects out of Field of View, this would work and has been proposed by others, but then you have people complaining about "WoT-view" where targets suddenly pop into existence on-screen when they enter your view as being "unrealistic". Would it be better if they "fade" into view (as if from out of a "fog" of war)?

[LordBraxton]

Twisted Power, on 26 March 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

If you make it so that any sort of CW and ranked matches are only 1st person, then you could safely implement 3rd person view without people complaining about game balance.

It could just be used in random matches that do not affect CW and in private games that people can make.

no this is flawed logic

the CORE of the game isnt CW+tournaments

THE RANDOM MATCHES are the core of this game

If I cant join a random match that is 1st person only they broke the game for me and other serious players who PUG more often.

They claimed 3rd person went against the pillars of their design decisions, I spent money with that official release from them resting in my mind.

Now they are switching the genre of the game from competetive FPS-sim-lite to a 3rd person action game.

Frankly Id ask for my money back if I thought there was a chance in hell I'd see it

[Roadbeer]

LordBraxton, on 26 March 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Adding third person changes the game on a huge fundamental level.

If they never said ANYTHING about 3rd person I wouldnt be able to complain nearly so loud

HOWEVER, they said it went against the pillars of their game design, (which is true) and it does not get much more definitive then that.

I spent all the money I did with the safe knowledge that this was a FPS

now they are telling me I spent my money on a 3rd person action shooter the whole time

that's a full genre shift within gaming don't you get that?

it really WILL effect the game that much. I dont care about their promises to FURTHER divide the community, after they already plan to break up the game based on region

I don't disagree with you on any given point, but that reply was to the contention that the investment was based SOLELY on it being first person, which, as I said... is disingenuous.

[LordBraxton]

DirePhoenix, on 26 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

On the first idea "dead people go to 1stPV": We have hit indicators in our neurohelmets that tell you if you're getting hit from behind, and at what angle you're being shot at already. Are you not using them?

On the second idea for not rendering objects out of Field of View, this would work and has been proposed by others, but then you have people complaining about "WoT-view" where targets suddenly pop into existence on-screen when they enter your view as being "unrealistic". Would it be better if they "fade" into view (as if from out of a "fog" of war)?

THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE 3RD PERSON FEEL REALISTIC

Thats the whole point, you can't.

Either you get HUGE advantages, or you get minor advantages (regardless) with mechs popping up everywhere.

The fact that they WONT DISCUSS this makes me sick, as the entire community has spoken out against it.

THE POLL WAS LIKE 5000 AGAINST and only ~300 FOR 3rd person.

PGI WHY YOU **** ON YOUR FANS? ME NO UNDERSTAND?

If this was IGPs doing tell us so we can hate them rightly instead of you.

Edited by LordBraxton, 26 March 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Reggimus]

Another thought, It's going to be easier to see All the IFF markers with the increased vision angles...


Solution Idea: Only render IFF markers for mechs (Friends and Foes) within 120deg of the CT facing direction, even if team mates have them lit up.

[Franchi]

DirePhoenix, on 26 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

On the first idea "dead people go to 1stPV": We have hit indicators in our neurohelmets that tell you if you're getting hit from behind, and at what angle you're being shot at already. Are you not using them?

On the second idea for not rendering objects out of Field of View, this would work and has been proposed by others, but then you have people complaining about "WoT-view" where targets suddenly pop into existence on-screen when they enter your view as being "unrealistic". Would it be better if they "fade" into view (as if from out of a "fog" of war)?

Yes the hud tells us the general direction of the hit, but seeing that hit in 3rd person will tell you a hell of a lot more than the hud will in first person, it will tell you the type of weapon, number of weapons, and the elevation/angle of attack of the enemy mech taking the shot. While still giving you enough time to torso twist DURING the laser shots. This on its own is a broken level of advantage

Edited by Franchi, 26 March 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

What if you select 1st Person view only and Community Warfare has been implemented. Your team queues up and cannot find any or only a limited number of 1st Person Only matches because there is a slew of 3PV-whatever matches once 3PV is allowed.

What then. Does the 1PV team keep trying, cave, or give up totally?

Community Warfare will become really jacked up if teams that want 3PV get that option. THAT will split or decrease the player base. Will there be a 3PV only CW AND a 1PV CW?

Eliminate the issue and keep everybody in CW in 1PV and only have 3PV in a training ground where the new guys can learn before they join the rest of the community who is playing 1PV only matches.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 26 March 2013 - 03:17 PM.