2002 replies to this topic

[Oy of MidWorld]

Jetfire, on 21 March 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

You can have a fragmented community or you will have an insufficient community in all likelihood. It isn't like there is an enormous amount of money left to get from the founders.

No? I paid about $29 every month for stupid stuff you don't need, cause i like the game. Anyone willing to shell out $120 for a founders package really doesn't care about that kind of money.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

When I compare 3rd Person to how powerful ECM is (in its current implementation is) I don't really see it as a problem.

I am more concerned about further splitting of the matchmaking queue. Which the proposed idea will most certainly do.

I would rather Third Person had a built-in drawback such as It takes a Module Slot and you cannot zoom while in third person. The module slot is installed by default when you buy a new mech, and is free. Hardcore players would much rather spend that module slot on something more useful.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Honest answer.

The analysis on those who voted, showed that the majority of votes came from a very narrow demographic of our player base. And while they represent some of core players, they did not necessarily represent the opinion of the general user base. The majority of our players never visit, post, or read the forum content, so the poll could be considered weighted in favour of a specific demographic.

Since the majority of players who have an issue with 3rd person come generally from the core players, we elected to address this issue via this forum post to collect all of the concerns and ideas that this group faces or has with 3rd person.

HERES an idea, put a REAL poll, in the launcher, "do you want 3rd person" "yes" "no"
Then publish the %ages so we can SEE this majority youre listening to more than the people who actually care enough about this game to sign up for the forums and keep posting through all the trolling/flaming and **** we wade through daily

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 21 March 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

I am more concerned about further splitting of the matchmaking queue. Which the proposed idea will most certainly do.

Beyond the obvious issue that 3rd person players have an advantage 1st person players don't, the diluting of the player pool really is the biggest problem with what they're considering. If we had a much bigger playerbase it'd be fine but this game is still relatively young. Fragmenting the player base is an awful idea right now.

[Jetfire]

Oy of MidWorld, on 21 March 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

No? I paid about $29 every month for stupid stuff you don't need, cause i like the game. Anyone willing to shell out $120 for a founders package really doesn't care about that kind of money.

Again, Ditto, but it will take more than the founders to keep this bus full of gas.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

shabowie, on 21 March 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I don't know how to constructively say that you guys are stubbornly insisting on implementing a feature with a good chance of ruining the game and alienating your core customers, so I won't. I hope somebody else can talk you guys off this cliff or come up with some miracle idea of how you can implement it without destroying your product.

agreed

[marbleworks]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 March 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

HERES an idea, put a REAL poll, in the launcher, "do you want 3rd person" "yes" "no"
Then publish the %ages so we can SEE this majority youre listening to more than the people who actually care enough about this game to sign up for the forums and keep posting through all the trolling/flaming and **** we wade through daily

I think PGI needs to have some people take a class on statistics seeing how Sat PGI feel that classifying a poll with such a huge number of participants some how tells them that they don't represent. Hey I thought only illogical sound people made such assumptions! It does smell pretty fishy PGI why don't you just say we mean nothing to you all as a company?

Edited by marbleworks, 21 March 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[Mahnmut]

TimTheEnchantor, on 21 March 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Make a real tutorial training ground with AI opponents for new players to test third-person in. You keep wanting to bring this to a wider audience but you have not implemented a proper tutorial in place. Use your developing time wisely here.

Totally agree with this. If new players have a hard time adjusting create an in depth tutorial and better training ground options (including 3rd person view) rather than changing the core game play.

[Sean von Steinike]

As already stated, the fragmention of the cummunity is a big concern. It's already been mentioned about how this will mess up community warfare if a unit playing in 3rd person holds a planet and is attacked by a unit using 1st person. Really, other than training grounds or or matches that don't count, I don't see how you can integrate 3rd person in the game without causing a huge headache. You probably have some numbers you are looking at but will you be able to support both types of play? Poll after poll on forums indicates a mere 10% or so interest in 3rd person play. Granted forum users tend to be more dedicated to the game (in spite of all our whines and teeth gnashing) but are your projections really so grand as to support the 3rd person crowd? If you make a 3rd person que and it is a ghost town, won't you be shooting yourself in the foot?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

This is one of our largest concerns. In fact, it's one of the reasons we don't just jam in more game modes. Yes, a theoretical boom would help ease a transition, but we're not going to rely on that to solve this issue. We are still formulating a plan. I don't have a complete answer for you at this time.

I have one, dont put in 3rd person

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

"DropShip" mode has evolved into Lobby a new gamemode for CW. We're not ready to discuss details yet.

so no dropship mode now?

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Try not to view this as Community Warfare vs 3rd person. They don't compete for development time. We are actively working on CW right now. 3rd person has one person assigned to it... me.

There is the point to be made that it IS 1st person vs 3rd person unless youll be allocating an entire new design crew for that mode

[Zaptruder]

Vassago Rain, on 21 March 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Yes, but they should have the big brass balls needed to go out and say this, and not try to hide it behind their backs, where we can't see, while they pretend they're not doing it..

It feels like they're been as forthcoming with the information as is feasible to be.

This thread is proof positive of that.

They plan on adding it to offline/testing ground mode. Great.

They have a long term plan to get third person into the game. OK.

They're soliciting feedback from their playerbase about how to best implement that, but aren't at this stage entertaining not including it.

So essentially, there aren't hard details because those details haven't been determined yet. Indeed, we're still at the planning and consideration stage.

But they are dealing with a playerbase that largely, instead of choosing to read and comprehend, instead of choosing to engage constructively, simply wants to block their ears and stomp their feet as hard as possible so that they can get their way.

It would make any sane rational person in the business not want to deal with that kind of feedback (because it's a waste of time to engage such a fixed negative mindset); instead it's easier for them to just wait out live data and metrics from once this stuff is in the game.

[Jacmac]

TOGSolid, on 21 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Fragmenting the player base is an awful idea right now.

Take heart! Only about 10% of the existing playerbase will be fragmented off if the polls on 3rd person are accurate. Most of the 3rd person players will be players that wouldn't otherwise play, and most of them will probably bail out of the game. This isn't an FPS, 3rd person or not. The pace will turn off most of the 3rd person players.

[Sol Reapr]

Option 1:

I think everyone agrees that splitting the player base will be detrimental. So keep everyone together, but limit the tactical advantages that a 3rd person view would normally convey.

• 'Mechs that are not LOS visible from the 1st person cockpit view are not visible in 3rd person view. (Allows for locked "over-the-shoulder", or 360° rotating camera view - without giving a major tactical advantage.)
  
• Target selection box is visible but reticles are not. (This reduces the ability of a player in 3rd person view to effectively make shots with a high degree of accuracy.)
  
• In addition to no reticle, remove the minimap.
  
• Allow this 3rd person view to be toggled with a keymap.

---

Option 2:

If it comes down to splitting the player base there really should only be two (2) options:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players
  
• Play against 1st person players only

The third option of 3rd person vs. 3rd person only doesn't make enough sense to support additional player base fragmentation. If a player chooses to play in 3rd person view, it shouldn't really matter what view his opponents can use. PUG/8v8 already splits the base, CW and regional servers will split it even more, another split for viewpoint may be one split too many.

---

In either case you could allow a more "full featured" 3rd person view which is limited to the Training Grounds.

The addition of a module (or function of the command module) which can call up a UAV would be a way to help 3rd person view players transition to 1st person view, as well as add tactical options to the game overall. The drone could either last for a specific amount of time, or could be directly targeted and vulnerable to being shot down.

Overall if 3rd person view is implemented I think that it should be part of a larger project scope, perhaps using it as the basis for after-death action replays from 3rd person view. Squeeze more functionality out of the mechanics than just training or to attract non-hardcore players.

[Jetfire]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 March 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

There is the point to be made that it IS 1st person vs 3rd person unless youll be allocating an entire new design crew for that mode

As it is clear that GARTH is the only one even charged with thinking about 3rd person right now, there is no real competition and as this is a long term plan, it won't be competing with anything until a lot of things are done. Once 3rd person is ready to be brought on deck, it will likely not require a lot of effort as it is native to the engine already.

[Tarmac]

"One in the hand is worth two in the tree"

Ok, so you want more people to play the game, but you don't want to alienate everyone who is currently playing. The big problem is that everyone thinks that the 3rd person perspective is going to be better/easier than the current 1st person/**** pit view. If that IS the case, then everyone will use it. I'm worried that even if I select 1st person only, I won't be able to find a game, and if I do, it will be hacked by leet doodz using the 3rd person perspective. Please don't try to tell us that it's going to be hack-proof, we all know that's not true.

Instead of a 3rd person perspective (which makes absolutely no sense from a realism point of view), why not add a rear facing video camera? Maybe let folks toggle between the map and the camera in the HUD? How's about a deployable UAV that gives you an overhead view in your map monitor? Of course both the camera and UAV would both be destroyable

It seems to me that your gravy is being poured by the 1st person/simulator crowd. It would be a shame to alienate them, just so you can woo some people, who probably aren’t going to play anyway, because your game doesn't have any sloths, ponies, or cute kitty cats.

[Chavette]

The problem in player retention lies in the fact that mw games require a ton of background knowledge, and no-one ever teaches that to players.

What you do need is:
- Tips on loading screen to get them familiar with all the bits and pieces. I have a huge list of tips compiled in the suggestions section. You can find it here.
- Tutorial mission with optional 3rd person, so they get to see how their mech works, maybe leave it as an option for the duration of cadet matches. This way you reap the benefits of the camera mode in teaching new players, but save yourself from dealing with it in the long run.
- Get rid of the abysmal trial mechs, have them all player designed(important)



Thank me later.

Edited by Chavette, 21 March 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Acid Phase]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Honest answer.

The analysis on those who voted, showed that the majority of votes came from a very narrow demographic of our player base. And while they represent some of core players, they did not necessarily represent the opinion of the general user base. The majority of our players never visit, post, or read the forum content, so the poll could be considered weighted in favour of a specific demographic.

Since the majority of players who have an issue with 3rd person come generally from the core players, we elected to address this issue via this forum post to collect all of the concerns and ideas that this group faces or has with 3rd person.

Something comes to mind as I read this. I have thought long and hard but I can't help but question what are we all (the froum posters) doing here? Us who come in day in and day out discussing issues or sharing experiences in MWO. If we the core gamers of this game aren't the target demographic that PGI aims to please, how do our opinions matter at all? The fact that you're willing to go ahead and ignore our plead to avoid 3PV is flat out lack of customer service. We are the ones willing to pay you the money you need to keep the game within it's true essence.

You guys (PGI) don't realize how much belief I had in you since you gave us a rundown of how MWO was going to be soley a Mech simulator with community warfare. The roadmap sold me to keep me going here in MWO. FFS, I built my rig specifically for this. Game breaking issues lately have disappointed me far beyond belief. Adding 3PV may as well have squashed my dreams of where this was headed. I'm not even going elaborate my details as why it's not a good idea. Many here have posted their concerns of which I share the same concerns as well. I also have my own rant on the subject....but that's niether here or there. It just doesn't matter. It never did.

Edited by Acid Phase, 21 March 2013 - 08:39 PM.

[Peace Possum]

Okay, I'm more than a little irritated that a post I made that was like three sentences that were not inflammatory or rude and started and ended with "please stop" got squelched. No warning, nothing.

So again:
Please stop...

[Randalf Yorgen]

I don't know if it's been suggested, probably it has but I'll say it myself. How about making this a consumable, like the UAV, You can't target with it but you can manouver it around the map for about 45 seconds and see what's ahead of you. It could cost 100K c-bills to replace it after you launch it and also it could be shot down. Further you could make it so that once you launch it the mini-map is replaced with the video feed from the UAV. Yes I know that this isn't the 3rd Person people normaly think of but it might help avoid the fragmentation of the Playerbase along the 1st/3rd person lines. I do like the idea of having 3rd person mode in a training campain, say the first three or four missions are third person but once you have "earned" the right you can then jump into a real mech and take it out for a spin.

I would like to say thank-you for reducing the twitchyness feeling that the game had developed over the winter, although imho the mechs are still way to fast they now feel heavier when you try to turn while moving around and stopping takes a good length of time even with hard brake unlocked so that is a step in the right direction.

Now, you did say a long time ago that there would never be 3rd person in this game, I get it, times change but does this mean that the mechs will start having a chance of going nuclear when they are cored in a single shot. This was something else you said wouldn't be seen but I think it too would add an added angle to the game play.

[Lord Banshee]

Third-Person-View relegates you to the All-River-City-All-The-Time servers.
FPV people play on servers without RCN.
Seems fair to me.