2002 replies to this topic

[Ghost_19Hz]

[LaserAngel]

I really appreciate the candor from PGI in the past day given what has happened. I recall the last time third person rolled around and I polled my friends, that never post on the forums and haven't played since burning out in November, and they said that it would ruin the spirit of the game.

Moving on, it's almost the end of the month. I'd love to be irate right now but we have Ask the Developers Answers today and we're just two under weeks away from April's Creative Director Update. Anything we say today for the new player experience and other tutorial/new player retention methods might just be rendered moot by learning next month's roadmap.

[Roadbeer]

PythonCPT, on 21 March 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Really? Couldn't have found a better "NOOOOO"?

That scene permanently ruined Darth Vader for me... can't even watch Ep. 4, 5 & 6 without wanting to punch a kitten.

[Squigles]

Why not just program a poll that engulfs nearly the entire home screen of the MWO client. Seems like if you refuse to accept the forum polls as representative of your community this would give you a legitimate sampling of your ENTIRE current player base. The claim could be made that many people would not answer the poll, but that's effectively the same as voting indifferent which is completely unimportant for knowing if your base wants it or does not.

The argument could be made that as this would be a poll of only current users, it would be skewed because the 3pv crowd has already left. However, if this is the case you can't have hard numbers to indicate that 3rd person would bring them back, because they're not here to ask. This seems to me like adding 3pv under these circumstances is just grasping at straws in the HOPES it brings you more players while simultaneously NOT alienating a large number of currently paying customers. Guessing that the majority of those who gave their thoughts in the last major poll were founders (those old guard anachronistic 1pv supporters) who likely average an investment of 90 dollars or more each, this is roughly half a million dollars (or more) saying "no".

If you truly MUST give 3pv a home, I hope you decide to only implement it on the "soon" to be added European servers. This at least will not cause me to feel like I've been repeatedly lied to and fed human waste, and will cause me to continue to financially contribute to the game as long as this original server remains 1PV only.

[Rejarial Galatan]

this ruins the game. no way around it.

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 21 March 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[StandingCow]

PGI, if you want a good representation of the entire MWO community... would you be against something like adding polls to the front end MWO screen (when you first launch the game)? PGI could then ask the community what they thought about various topics and see how people vote.

You could ask questions like this and probably better gauge the entire communities thoughts.

[Rejarial Galatan]

MechWarrior Online is being designed to put you the player in the seat of the pilot. It is 100% first person view only. Being the pilot is one of our key design pillars and 3rd person breaks that pillar on multiple levels as seen in many of the other 3rd Person discussions.

We will investigate 3rd person in the far off distance for special game settings, but this is very far off in the distance.

While we appreciate those who enjoy 3rd person, MWO will be 1st person out of the gate and in the near future.

-Paul
Lead Designer

from what Paul said to a full 180 swing to a fully shattered pillar.

to be honest, this does what you guys said you did NOT want to do, divide us, well, sad to say, we are divided now.

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 21 March 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[Elizander]

The one, single thing that I would like 3rd person view to have is to not render anything that cannot be seen by the 1st person camera.

• If a mech is behind me, I technically cannot see it. If I swing my 3rd Person camera around, I still see nothing.
  
• If a mech is behind a hill, and the hill is blocking my 1st Person view, I will see nothing but empty terrain.

Implementing it this way will allow you to join both 1st and 3rd person groups without any need to segment the population due to not having any advantage in being in 3rd person.

Issues with separating the people for 1st and 3rd person views:

• 8 man teams. You now cannot have a team with mixed preferences if some people prefer one view or another. It's hard enough to form a team, now you have a 50/50 chance of having a member not being compatible with your group.
  
• 8 man queue is already not very populated. Splitting it in half will make it even more so.
  
• Community Warfare queue - People who prefer 1st and 3rd person now cannot fight each other, ever. Will planets be divided into 1st person planets and 3rd person planets?
  
• Official Tournaments - Will -all- official tournaments (the 4v4, 8v8 and 12v12 type) be a mix of 1st and 3rd person or will there be separate tournaments for 1st and 3rd person?

[Rejarial Galatan]

i am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that we WILL be forced into dealing with 3rd person players <speaking as a purist on the 1st person view only front> as soon as people learn to hack the system to force 3rd person POV into 1st person only. While you claim to have the options of:

1st POV only

3rd POV only

Mixed POV

it is honestly only 1st or 3rd only because no way you say it, when the 2 mix, the ONLY viable option is 3rd POV because it is easy mode pure and simple.

[Pater Mors]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.

Preferably by firing squad. I'll take a good old fashioned hanging if the boys are off for the day though.

If you put blanks in all the guns except one or two, the men won't know who killed 3rd person and then no one will feel guilty. Conversely if it's to be hung, make sure you to tie the slipknot so that it breaks the neck, but not so tight that the head pops off and you have to collect it from the roof, that's not fun for anyone.

Hope that helps. Keep up the good work.

Edited by Pater Mors, 21 March 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[Dr Killinger]

Personally, I want MWO to be a simulation. I know it's not necessarily everyone's opinion, but I can say most of us are of the mind that we want to feel immersed in the Battletech universe, and so first person is the only option. The forum poll showed that. There may be a small percentage of people wanting to use 3rd person (MechAssault QQ etc), but there are those who will do anything for a competitive advantage. Those are the ones that will then proceed to destroy 1st person.

Adding third person is an issue because some people may use it. I'm not forced to, but when people start using it to see around corners and over hills, I am forced to.

The fact that I won't be forced to fight people using this option comforts me slightly, because I can continue on my happy simulation-y way. It does concern me that the "1st person queue" might become a ghost town, and we're all forced to play 3rd person anyway. If this happens, I'll probably still play MWO because of my love for the franchise, but I'll be a very sad panda. It just wouldn't be the BT game we wanted all these years.

Splitting such a small community is bad, though, no matter which way you slice it.

I don't have a solution for this, I guess. Having 3rd person, competitive and fair play, and community warfare in the same bag is nigh on impossible. I'd maybe say that, once role warfare is introduced fully, make the command console enable third person, in conjunction with a module. A few tons, a module slot or two, and I think it may be balanced. Make it optional, make it an advantage, but make them pay for using it. In a competitive situation then, not everyone would be using it. Maybe make it jammable by ECM, and detectable by BAP? I'm just rambling... but I think it can coexist with first person if you have to give up stuff to use it (maybe limit the mechs that can use it?). Tonnage is the most important price to pay, though. Give me the advantage of a few medium lasers if I choose to remain in 1st person.

I guess this then moves it out of reach of new players you're trying to draw in, unless you always make sure there's at least one trial mech with it enabled, but there aren't many canon mechs with a command console. Sigh.

On the whole, though, it's still a no for me, and I hope I articulated why. Just look at Mechwarrior 4's online play. It was just look over hill with 3rd person, poptart, alpha strike, coolant flush, repeat. I really, really don't want to experience that kind of boredom again. It was straight up crap. I really think third person will limit viable builds and tactics in a massive way.

Lastly, a small suggestion: when you drop a bombshell like this next time, don't do it to some random guy via twitter. It causes a storm of brown stuff. Come to us, your loyal players, and break it to us gently.



EDIT: If I were in charge of the game, and someone came up to me and said I had to implement 3rd person or I was fired, I would:
a) frown
add an unranked queue, like in Starcraft 2
c) enable 3rd person in the unranked, noncompetitive queue
d) add a custom game mode (ie what clans have wanted forever)
e) enable 3rd person as an option in custom games
f) enable 3rd person in the training ground
g) make as sure as hell community warfare was only played in 1st person, for competitive reasons

Edited by Dr Killinger, 21 March 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[valkyrie]

LaserAngel, on 21 March 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

I really appreciate the candor from PGI in the past day given what has happened. I recall the last time third person rolled around and I polled my friends, that never post on the forums and haven't played since burning out in November, and they said that it would ruin the spirit of the game.

Moving on, it's almost the end of the month. I'd love to be irate right now but we have Ask the Developers Answers today and we're just two under weeks away from April's Creative Director Update. Anything we say today for the new player experience and other tutorial/new player retention methods might just be rendered moot by learning next month's roadmap.

This. I appreciate the sudden transparency (probably out of fear someone would dig up what they're doing anyway). Nonetheless, I'm pretty angry that this thread is basically saying "we know what you want, we just don't care." If that happened pretty much anywhere else, the guy who said that would be in the unemployment line before the ink was even dry on his firing papers.

Frankly, I think IGP is forcing PGI's hand. There's no other explanation as to why they suddenly went to all the things they said they'd never do (coolant, 3rd person, etc.) and then went "yeah actually we changed our minds" after saying said things scored them $5,000,000 for a game most people who paid had yet to actually play.

[Roland]

mekabuser, on 21 March 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

I find it utterly preposterous that their "data" suggested that people couldnt drive their mechs.. Mechs are walking tanks with two sets of guns that follow each other.. That is it.. I mean , it implies the gamer they are targeting cant walk and chew gum.
I honestly think its a bit of bs.. I would love to know when this data was gathered.. See, the thing is that everyone forgets that this game ran like a wooden cart with square wheels for a long time.. IIRC right through OB launch.

Honestly, I have absolutely no trouble believing this.

When I die in game, and watch through spectator mode, some very large portion of the time it's painfully apparent that the person I'm watching really has no idea how to control his mech or play... at least, not to the extent that players from older mechwarrior games know how to play.

However, I don't think this is really something that the third person perspective will really help.

Certainly, that may help address some aspects of it, and prevent running into walls and stuff, but I think larger issues stem from the fact that many folks just don't understand many of the most basic mechanics of the game.. like how missiles work, or what weapons ranges are, etc.

And the biggest reason for this, is that there is virtually ZERO documentation for any of this outside of the forums.

If you want to help folks learn to play, then you need to document the game IN THE GAME somehow. Most players are not going to come to the forums and dig through threads to learn how weapons work.

Allowing a third person perspective will most likely fragment the community. Additionally, it isn't likely to really ease folks into a first person view (unless it's really just sold as a training mode, in very limited parts of the game), because folks who have trouble with the situational awareness involved with a first person view will continue to have those troubles.. because they will never be forced to learn those skills.

Ultimately, I understand where Bryan is coming from, in that he needs to generate broad appeal for this game. Perhaps it's just a niche game, and that "real" mechwarrior just doesn't appeal to enough folks.

I'm skeptical that is the case though. I think mechwarrior actually has some special qualities, which other games lack... The best path forward is to focus most on those things that make it unique, rather than trying to make it into those other games. Why? Because if Mechwarrior cannot stand on what makes it DIFFERENT from other games, then it will not survive as a game anyway. You will not beat other more established shooter franchises, by trying to be what they already are.

Attempting to do things like change the view perspective seems exceptionally premature at this point, given that so much of the game is only half finished.

For instance, if you are worried about losing new players, then it seems like you really must address things like the fact you are still running on DX9. This is pretty outdated stuff at this point, right? If you are trying to appeal to new players, that kind of thing matters. You're gonna get dinged on it, when compared to other modern games.

There are three things which I think are going to play a bigger role in keeping new players around, much more so than 3rd person view:
1) Stability and performance - You have awesome artistic assets. But to some degree, this stuff gets buried under technical issues. Things like the netcode hampered things a lot, giving a gameplay experience that many thought was reminiscent of games from 2001. This is, thankfully, dramatically improved now, but it could still be improved further. Likewise, many folks still have frequent crashes. And some of the rendering technology, non-destructible environments, etc. are a bit dated. I know all of these things are slated for improvement, but they really all are more important than adding a third person view.

2) Content and Game Modes - We're still playing with only 2 game modes, on a handful of maps. When you release a patch with a new map, you notice that we GO NUTS, right? Because we are absolutely starving for new maps. Likewise, many of us want more game modes. On some level, it seems like you could give us some new, basic game modes (like deathmatch, with some simple mechanisms to prevent someone hiding) without a HUGE investment of time. And these different modes could appeal not only to those of us who have been here a while, but to some of those new players too. Deathmatch is generally a pretty standard mode that lots of folks like.

3) In-game documentation - This has improved by leaps and bounds since closed beta, but it still has a long way to go. There needs to be something in the game itself which shows how things work. For this, perhaps the easiest way to do it would be some tutorial videos just explaining some basics (for instance, a video on missile weapons... one on energy weapons and heat... one on ballistics, ammo, ammo explosions... one on mech construction...) Beyond that, a few extremely simple, single player missions where it teaches you the basics of mech control, weapons aiming, etc.

Really, if you are most concerned with teaching new players how to control their mechs, then I must suggest that before you try changing how mechs are controlled, that you make SOME attempt to actually teach them how to drive their mechs with the current scheme.

Honestly, driving a mech is complex compared to many games... that's part of what makes mechwarrior great. And new players CAN be taught to do it. I've taught a few folks how to do it, after introducing them to this game. I think you need to explore this aspect first, rather than trying to just make everything easier.

Just some thoughts though. Ultimately, I want this game to succeed. Even with its flaws, I love this game to the extent that I play it every day. I don't play bad games, when I can help it... so there is something of great value that you guys have created here. Don't sell yourself short by thinking you need to make it into something else.

[Azantia]

This is how this is going to work :

PGI will find there is NO WAY to implement 3rd person without providing a tactical advantage to those in 3rd person vs 1st Person.

Then

PGI will find there is NO WAY they can segregate the community via 1st with 1st and 3rd with 3rd, without major problems.

Then

PGI will tell us, "too bad" and will place 1st and 3rd person players together because they cannot find a good solution to problem B, and dont really give a **** about problem A (they dont play this game, save for a very small minority at PGI, that much is clear)

in order words :

Get used to the idea of playing with 3rd person players.

For me, this will be the last straw, have had enough of this stupidity. Plenty of other games out there to waste time on until a real mechwarrior product comes along. Although, after this, no company will want to touch it.

Edited by Azantia, 21 March 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

I'm sure because of the division you haven't found a way to make 3rd person not have an advantage.

MW4 was divided amongst 3rd person and first person. We'd normally meet in the Open games and split at the leagues.

As a matter of fact, for Zone bidding, FFP was a great bidding tool.

If you don't know, league matches would often be bid like this:

Opening Bid:

Host: 3rd Person, Pea Soup Fog, C1, Timberline, 30 minutes
OpFor can Change three: C3, Clear, Snowbound
Host: C1, 50 kills
OpFor: FFP
Host: Arrrrgh!!

The community was split, and if wehave enough players, I guess that's ok, we'll still shoot each other sometimes. 3rd person style enjoyers rarely switch to FFP. I'll shoot them in opens, but when it comes to league, play find an old NBT player tell you how the planetary was, that'd be perfect, and keep it real for that.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

valkyrie, on 21 March 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

This. I appreciate the sudden transparency (probably out of fear someone would dig up what they're doing anyway). Nonetheless, I'm pretty angry that this thread is basically saying "we know what you want, we just don't care." If that happened pretty much anywhere else, the guy who said that would be in the unemployment line before the ink was even dry on his firing papers.

Frankly, I think IGP is forcing PGI's hand. There's no other explanation as to why they suddenly went to all the things they said they'd never do (coolant, 3rd person, etc.) and then went "yeah actually we changed our minds" after saying said things scored them $5,000,000 for a game most people who paid had yet to actually play.

this

[Duncan Longwood]

Ok, so if we get third person view can I have rear firing lasers for my Atlas?

[MrB]

I'm kinda curious as to how this feature will integrate with Arty and Airstrike aiming/targeting. Seems like a 3rd person view could be used for some BS consumable aiming/target spotting from complete cover. that would be really annoying...

[Psikez]

This is item 2 on the things you told us were not going to happen but now definitely are.

I am no longer pleased.

People who are not pleased do not spend money.

If you're bet is your wider audience is worth more than the amount I'm willing to put up on this game go ahead and make your bed.

http://www.youtube.c...e&v=M5QGkOGZubQ

Edited by Psikez, 21 March 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[alexivy]

What I agree with:

• Please, no
  
• Should not be available in 8 man drops
  
• Should not be available in CW
  
• Should be implimented in Training Grounds first

What I have to add:

• Not thrilled about the prospect of 3PV ECM'd mechs. If the 3PV is implimented in such a way thay it gives them a greater ability to navigate blindzones, I feel that the range of ECM effectiveness should be nerfed for 3PV players (i.e you should be able to see them on your radar at say 300m and not 200m.) If 3PV gives them an advantage, it should put them at some disadvantage, too. At the very least to encourage the movement away from 3PV as they become more comfortable with gameplay.