2002 replies to this topic

[Acid Phase]

valkyrie, on 21 March 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

Frankly, I think IGP is forcing PGI's hand. There's no other explanation as to why they suddenly went to all the things they said they'd never do (coolant, 3rd person, etc.) and then went "yeah actually we changed our minds" after saying said things scored them $5,000,000 for a game most people who paid had yet to actually play.

My thoughts exactly. It's typical. The ones on their high horse who haven't even experienced what's the need of their loyal customers. Customer satisfaction will be at an all time low.

[Rejarial Galatan]

there is no way this can work. 3rd person view is just too tactically advantageous especially when the basic 360 radar is an obscene MC cost item. this is just a tragic move on PGI's part, or worse. I would speculate, but my fear of PGI wont let me. not in the open anyway.

[Dr Killinger]

PGI, if you're determined to do this... tell us what has convinced you so. Yes, we all want 3rd person to die on the forums, but there must be something that has suddenly convinced you to go back on your word. Did you get some market data? Did the grand chancellor of Japan (or whoever it is that prefers 3rd person games) give you a call? If you said to us "market data suggests that the player base will triple if we implement 3rd person view"... hell, even I'd agree that you should add it asap.

[zverofaust]

So I have re-thought and clarified my original idea into something that I HOPE is more digestible to everyone, and can be implemented WITHOUT the need to separate players into different matchmaking pools.

• While 3rd person camera is active, all Mech controls save for acceleration are disabled;
  
• All HUD elements are disabled, including damage notification;
  
• Camera shake from weapon impacts removed;
  
• FORCED PERSPECTIVE used to create a heavy artificial focal blur where your Mech is in focus, but the environment becomes progressively blurred and ill-defined to limit the amount of "enhanced perspective" one can gain from peeking over hills or around corners, very similar to the original rendering distance protocols used during the Closed Beta.
  
• Camera controls during 3rd person view would be full 360 degree rotation.

Effectively, it would be a vanity feature only and make it extremely unsatisfactory to use for enhancing one's perspective. I feel, or hope, that this could be implemented universally without the need to split player pools.

[Tarman]

valkyrie, on 21 March 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

This. I appreciate the sudden transparency (probably out of fear someone would dig up what they're doing anyway). Nonetheless, I'm pretty angry that this thread is basically saying "we know what you want, we just don't care." If that happened pretty much anywhere else, the guy who said that would be in the unemployment line before the ink was even dry on his firing papers.

Frankly, I think IGP is forcing PGI's hand. There's no other explanation as to why they suddenly went to all the things they said they'd never do (coolant, 3rd person, etc.) and then went "yeah actually we changed our minds" after saying said things scored them $5,000,000 for a game most people who paid had yet to actually play.

Probably my biggest overarching concern; frogmarching orders. So even if PGI doesn't want to do this "be like those other games" cloning work, they may be under orders from IGP. It would explain the "yes we are doing this" tone of consumable coolant and now 3PV, and the vast amount of mixed messaging that comes out of the two companies in general. And it's not like Garth could tell us even if it were true; he still needs to eat.

"Hey guys, my bosses told me I have to change this game away from our plans, even though I said repeatedly it's stupid and why. Sorry, but we have to copycat some other games or we can't help fund the other projects around the company." That's a little too clear for any business to come clean with. You don't tell people about your internal disputes and keep your jobs.

[Fate Aki]

I do believe that your Founders fortune of over $5 million shows that you could drop IGP and get plenty of support from your customers, BUT you have to listen to the majority of them, not the minority. If you continue down this path you will loose more paying customers than you are estimating you'll gain. If you want proof, you only have to look to the path of past MMO self-destructions. Many games that had a fabulous concept, but the developers botched it.

We are your beta testers. Maybe you should listen to us? Far fewer will shed tears if you drop this 3rd person view idea than will if you go forward with it.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Fate Aki, on 21 March 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

I do believe that your Founders fortune of over $5 million shows that you could drop IGP and get plenty of support from your customers, BUT you have to listen to the majority of them, not the minority. If you continue down this path you will loose more paying customers than you are estimating you'll gain. If you want proof, you only have to look to the path of past MMO self-destructions. Many games that had a fabulous concept, but the developers botched it.

We are your beta testers. Maybe you should listen to us? Far fewer will shed tears if you drop this 3rd person view idea than will if you go forward with it.

high high hopes, but, its pointless

[TOPGUN Stinger]

3rd Person...is this like a wingman...as a TOPGUN pilot I like wingmen, and ofc volleyball.

[Fate Aki]

Even better idea. Put this thread to a vote. See where your loyal customers stand. For if you ignore your customers, they will ignore you into poverty.

[Synaps3]

This is the second idiotic thing in as many patches. PGI why do you go from one dumb move to another? I'm extremely unhappy with 3rd person and with PGI by extension for four reasons:

-----First, I no longer trust PGI. That's two things in a row you promised you will never do. I can't plan my future in this game with any certainty. Forget investments or my fond hopes of competitive play. If you say you wont do something YOU MUST NOT DO IT. More importantly, you must have a discussion with your community about why you want to change it. You're not going that route at all. I have no faith in PGI to do the right thing and no longer any faith that you'll talk to me about things you know I won't like.

Hell this only showed up because of a ridiculous tweet. Do you have ANY CONCEPTION of how bad you all look as a result? My guess is you have no clue, since your post shows none of it.

-----Second, 3rd person is incredibly poor for competitive games. It was bad for earlier MechWarrior games, it was bad for planetside....hiding behind cover and miraculously seeing your enemies anyway is ridiculous BS. Gives a huge, unrealistic and unfair advantage to people who just camp. It has no place in a competitive game.

Basically, bring in 3rd person and CAMPING is going to be the most lucrative and smart tactic for players to adopt.

-----Third, you say you can "mitigate" this splitting of the community somehow...but is that even possible? I'd say it isn't. If you have players who can play in 3rd person and they can't play against others...you can't magic up opponents, there are only so many people playing on a given day and now there will be fewer. This is solving your newbie confusion problem by introducing a "split the community problem." You're just trading one problem for another and in the end it hurts you for the above reasons.

-----Fourth, community warfare, are you splitting that too? It depends crucially on people being able to play in it. The idea that you will split your communities is anathema to your future plans (and our future hopes as players) for community warfare. Given your recent penchant for going back on promises, I'm on the fence as to whether you'll cancel community warfare (without telling anyone of us ofc) because it doesn't play well with 3rd person.

Sorry PGI. I just went from being a competitive player to being a casual-player-looking-for-a-new-game. I cannot and will not invest myself in a game where the developer will turn on its promises with no notice and introduce features that make absolutely no sense to me.

Trust and Promises another company with no clue what those words mean .

Edited by Synaps3, 21 March 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[raygun]

i think a better way to reach a larger market would be to implement features that enabled the existing community rather than emulating a different game's play style.

things such as:
in-game comms (seriously, dubya tee eff!)
spectator mode
player led "clans"/groups/armies/whatevs
lobby system
command control module (enabling of players ingame to lead and strategize)
in-game recording and saving of matches for private or public viewing

P.S. I realize most, if not all of these things are slated to be implemented at some point in development (besides recording) and i know, beta is beta is beta is beta; but, i would rather have these types of things get expedited than 3rd person.

P.P.S. here's some jungle

[DirePhoenix]

LockeJaw, on 21 March 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

So, you're telling us that its happening, not asking us if it should happen. I really hope you understand how pissed off I and other members of the community are at you right now.

Consumables. 3rd Person. Anything else you want to renig on? Hell, IS there anything else?!?!

If there's one thing that forum posters consistently do not understand, it's that they DO NOT represent the entire playerbase. They don't even represent the majority of the playerbase, not by a longshot. In any game. Ever.

What forum posters do represent is the most dedicated and interested portions of the game's playerbase, so if you have ever made a post or bothered to even show up here to read anything, congratulations. You're more interested and/or dedicated to this game than likely over 90% of the game's playerbase.

But do not get that confused with thinking that because you're here, you represent anything other than yourself. Even these ridiculous polls that people keep posting up mean absolutely nothing because by their very nature they are self-selected polls and inherently biased by the people that self-select themselves to participate in them, which is even then a smaller part of another small biased group that have bothered to even show up to the forums to begin with. Participating in a game forum is more often than not like talking in an echo chamber, with similar voices just amplifying their point of view with each other (whenever they're not flame-blasting anyone with an opposing view). It can become deafening to the point where users think their view is the only view because that's all they hear being echoed back to them.

But since you want to know what else is left to "reneg" on (assuming you mean to renegotiate the intent to create the experience of being the actual 'mech pilot instead of playing an arcade game), I'll just throw these hand grenades into the crowd:

• MechAssault style walk-over powerups that instantly reload your weapons, give you some sort of "power boost", "turbo speed", "invulnerability", etc.
  
  • Despite being panned by BattleTech fans, the MechAssault games made money. They did so by selling a lot of games to arcade players, and a lot of people got introduced to BattleTech through MechAssault, and expect that kind of game from the franchise.
    
  • You know who else was a big fan of MechAssault? "Gabe" from Penny Arcade. You think that doesn't have an influence on the general gaming populace?
• Repair Stations/Mobile Field Bases. Remember these from MW3? Vehicles and stationary bases that you could use to instantly repair your 'Mech on the fly?
  
  • Don't kid yourself. We already have threads on these forums where people are asking for these things. As much as these things aren't "BattleTech" and make the game more arcadey than simulator, even more people were introduced to MechWarrior through... wait for it... the previous MechWarrior games!!! And guess what? These people are now expecting the same arcadey things that BattleTech fans say "ruined" those previous MW games. Are they wrong to expect the same type of things in this continuation of the franchise?
    
  • And remember, people posting on these forums (even if it's not the same point of view as yours) are also the ones that are more interested/dedicated to this game than the ones who aren't even posting. If there any threads making this kind of request, can you imagine the number of people that aren't posting here that also want this?
• Multi-vector/side-slipping jump jets. Yup, already seen threads asking for these too.

So you see, it can get worse. Always. That infamous "misunderstood" Twitter post from the guy wanting a third person view? He is also part of this game's playerbase. And there are many more like him, even if they're not on these forums. And there's nothing PGI can do that won't fan these flames even worse. If they say they won't put these kinds of things in, the forum user's won't believe them (especially after this and the coolant flush debacle), or they'll blow up even more if they do change their minds at some point, no matter what the justification. If they say nothing, the forum users will rant that they're being ignored and/or continue to build on rumors to rant about regardless of what PGI may actually be doing.

[M4rtyr]

Fate Aki, on 21 March 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

I am aware of this, but I am pointing out PGI could go to "Kick Start" and know that we would follow them and so would our spare cash. The founders fortune just proves the demand. And if IGP is pulling strings then those strings need to be cut.

If only cutting ties with a publisher were so easy these days, many games would be better for it... but its not easy or even possible in most cases.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Synaps3, on 21 March 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

This is the second idiotic thing in as many patches. PGI why do you go from one dumb move to another? I'm extremely unhappy with 3rd person and with PGI by extension for four reasons:

-----First, I no longer trust PGI. That's two things in a row you promised you will never do. I can't plan my future in this game with any certainty. Forget investments or my fond hopes of competitive play. If you say you wont do something YOU MUST NOT DO IT. More importantly, you must have a discussion with your community about why you want to change it. You're not going that route at all. I have no faith in PGI to do the right thing and no longer any faith that you'll talk to me about things you know I won't like.

Hell this only showed up because of a ridiculous tweet. Do you have ANY CONCEPTION of how bad you all look as a result? My guess is you have no clue, since your post shows none of it.

-----Second, 3rd person is incredibly poor for competitive games. It was bad for earlier MechWarrior games, it was bad for planetside....hiding behind cover and miraculously seeing your enemies anyway is ridiculous BS. Gives a huge, unrealistic and unfair advantage to people who just camp. It has no place in a competitive game.

Basically, bring in 3rd person and CAMPING is going to be the most lucrative and smart tactic for players to adopt.

-----Third, you say you can "mitigate" this splitting of the community somehow...but is that even possible? I'd say it isn't. If you have players who can play in 3rd person and they can't play against others...you can't magic up opponents, there are only so many people playing on a given day and now there will be fewer. This is solving your newbie confusion problem by introducing a "split the community problem." You're just trading one problem for another and in the end it hurts you for the above reasons.

-----Fourth, community warfare, are you splitting that too? It depends crucially on people being able to play in it. The idea that you will split your communities is anathema to your future plans (and our future hopes as players) for community warfare. Given your recent penchant for going back on promises, I'm on the fence as to whether you'll cancel community warfare (without telling anyone of us ofc) because it doesn't play well with 3rd person.

Sorry PGI. I just went from being a competitive player to being a casual-player-looking-for-a-new-game. I cannot and will not invest myself in a game where the developer will turn on its promises with no notice and introduce features that make absolutely no sense to me.

Trust and Promises another company with no clue what those words mean .

QFT QFT

also, and this is to those who still think this game is beta mode: it isnt. Once it left Closed Beta and opened it up to the world, it was launched. As a FREE to play title with 0 FORCED investment, that makes it a launched title, this is doubly true <not counting the START of founders, but, the end portion that overlapped the start of 'open beta"> when you started taking our money for founders packages and your 'micro' transactions, which are more like paying for full on games in some cases, soo not micro transactions, since a REAL MT is on the scale of 2-3 bucks, not 10-30 bucks a pop.

[Zylo]

This announcement is not encouraging me to spend any more money on MWO, in fact this makes me less likely to buy anything because after the coolant addition I do not believe that PGI will be able to keep that 3rd person **** out of games where players want to play 1st person only.

You guys can't even get the ******* matchmaker to run Elo + weight matching. How the hell are you going to do all that + 3 view options?

Sorry PGI, I'm not giving you any more money beyond my founders purchase. I'm not quitting MWO (yet) it's just that I don't trust you guys enough to bother spending any additional funds on this game.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Fate Aki, on 21 March 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Even better idea. Put this thread to a vote. See where your loyal customers stand. For if you ignore your customers, they will ignore you into poverty.

they did put it to a vote, and the people who dont already play and buy stuff in the game are more important that the ones who do.

[ImplicitAssembler]

This is just about the dumbest idea ever. What's next? Regenerating armor? Power-ups? Health packs?. Insta-spawn?
I wouldn't have splashed out on the full founders pack (despite already being in the closed beta) had I known you would dumb it down this way.

[Mazzyplz]

game is too intimidating at the moment;

this is why call of duty and battlefield are so unpopular and have failed economically; first person view.




what new players need is not only 3rd person but also a mascot; something like a cute urbanmech that has funky jumpjet sounds

war machines are just too scary for children these days

Edited by Mazzyplz, 21 March 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

ImplicitAssembler, on 21 March 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

This is just about the dumbest idea ever. What's next? Regenerating armor? Power-ups? Health packs?. Insta-spawn?
I wouldn't have splashed out on the full founders pack (despite already being in the closed beta) had I known you would dumb it down this way.

Wish refunds were still available. Given that theyre shattering their own design pillars, this wasnt what I paid in for

[Rejarial Galatan]

Zylo, on 21 March 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

This announcement is not encouraging me to spend any more money on MWO, in fact this makes me less likely to buy anything because after the coolant addition I do not believe that PGI will be able to keep that 3rd person **** out of games where players want to play 1st person only.

You guys can't even get the ******* matchmaker to run Elo + weight matching. How the hell are you going to do all that + 3 view options?

Sorry PGI, I'm not giving you any more money beyond my founders purchase. I'm not quitting MWO (yet) it's just that I don't trust you guys enough to bother spending any additional funds on this game.

for once I agree 100% with Zylo here. The trust we HAD with you PGI is gone. You broke 2 key core design pillars. 1st person only and Pay 2 Win <the hero mechs and consumables are the start on that path, its a short jump to gold ammo>. we cannot trust you guys. Especially when it seems you ask for our opinion, and when we are so polarized against a feature you clearly WANT in the game regardless of what we by and large want, you ignore us and tell us its coming any way. how do you honestly expect us to trust in you guys?

ImplicitAssembler, on 21 March 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

This is just about the dumbest idea ever. What's next? Regenerating armor? Power-ups? Health packs?. Insta-spawn?
I wouldn't have splashed out on the full founders pack (despite already being in the closed beta) had I known you would dumb it down this way.

they just wanted to burn us is all, and burn us they have