2002 replies to this topic

[Vectoron The Black Minister]

Rej is right, this isnt "beta" so to speak any more. Most F2Ps are still in beta from my understanding. So the Beta bit is a crutch.

[Nine-Ball]

Why are we even talking about TPV? We should be taking MWO to the next level with 3D visuals that can be used with the appropriate Mech Warrior (built in headset and mic too) 3D goggles!

Hell, why even think in 3rd person terms when you can up the awesomeness factor by 10 by going 4th person. Watching yourself playing MWO (in 3D naturally)! Pretty nifty huh?

[Vectoron The Black Minister]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 21 March 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Why are we even talking about TPV? We should be taking MWO to the next level with 3D visuals that can be used with the appropriate Mech Warrior (built in headset and mic too) 3D goggles!

Hell, why even think in 3rd person terms when you can up the awesomeness factor by 10 by going 4th person. Watching yourself playing MWO (in 3D naturally)! Pretty nifty huh?

Pftpfffftpffffftpfffft hahahaha!

[HRR Insanity]

If your IGP-product-manager-braindead-zombie-person really thinks that 3rd person is going to help MWO meet it's 'revenue targets'... at least do the requisite change management process and prove to everyone that there actually is a problem.

If you really believe as you do, Bryan, poll the entire Beta player population with a forced poll at game-startup. Display the unaltered on-the-fly results your website. Show us the demographics breakdowns in aggregate.

Until then: You're alienating your most dedicated players, your hardcore fans, and the people who gave you money when you had basically nothing at all built. You're breaking your word and our trust. In short, are screwing up badly. I hope you stop before the game dies.

[Wintersprite]

First up I'll say this is a bad idea and whoever came up with it should feel bad. There are so many pitfalls you could be stepping in. Remember Star Wars Galaxies? It had a huge patch that tweaked the core gameplay with a heavy hand to attract more customers. Except it drew barely any new players while losing a good portion of the existing playerbase. This is what you are risking. However since you insist on adding this feature here's my two cents in order of favorability.

1) Training mode only. No effect on the real gameplay and the supposed target population get to learn moving your mech. If we could figure out how to pilot a mech at age of 10 with no Internet tutorials to help on Mechwarrior 2 why are today's children less capable?

2) Add camera drones as a consumable. As an example you get three drones per module slot. The drone will follow your mech when launched and stay there until shot down. Since it's clearly visible and audible it can be spotted with sensors, eyes and ears. This limits the bad habit of peeking around the corners without being noticed yourself when the drone can be seen. Just make sure it shows up in your hud. As an addition it will encourage you to use first person to get more utility from your module slots.

3) Seperate play modes. This will divide the playerbase and create problems like the one with community warfare earlier in the thread where you had a 1st person and a 3rd person groups fighting with the same resource. Not a very good choice but probably the easiest to do technically.

[James DeGriz]

So the core of people that don't want 3rd Person, namely the die hard MechWarrior fans are going to be ignored in favour of the "different game every month" masses? Way to go Bryan, way to go.

What I would like to see is some transparency on exactly where this "silent majority" is coming from.

I'm honestly dumbfounded that you're pressing on with this, really I am. I really thought you guys at PGI "got" what it was to be a MechWarrior fan, because most of your appeared to be fans of the franchise yourselves. This is starting to make me think that you don't have the best interests of the IP at heart at all.


Whilst I do completely understand that you are running a business, and in order to make that business successful you have to try and make it as appealing to as many people as possible, this is one of those lines that you just don't cross. Seriously. Paul asked us in the missiles thread to let him know how missiles "felt", and not play spreadsheet warrior. This is precisely the same principle. I'm not interested in the pros and cons of 3PV,from a game play perspective, it just feels wrong for MechWarrior.

[Caleb Lee]

DCM Zeus, on 21 March 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

This will cause a major issue with CW, your going to have 3rd player only units trying to play against 1st player only units, this will ONLY cause a split and make CW stale. While this is speculation, it's still something that needs to be looked at.

Pretty much what Zeus said. For the record, I'm completely against 3rd person view in any meaningful matchmaking or combat.

For now, based on what you've implemented I could see 3rd person for Training Grounds and for Cadets until they finish the starter bonus games.

If you do, however, implement 3rd person view in the regular game I see it fracturing your player base as too many kids want the 'easy' mode these days i.e. Xbox generation. How are you going to implement this for CW? I mean really? You're going to let a smaller player base affect how the map shifts and results in anything meaningful? In the current state, a more fractured player base will only upset players further as they will have longer queues and wait times for matches.

If you combine the queues, you will need to heavily penalize the 3rd person players with a 50% reduction in cbills or experience.

Even then I don't see myself or a good majority of the players I know continuing to support this game or continue playing.

PGI, you are steadily losing any credibility you have left...

[Rejarial Galatan]

HRR Insanity, on 21 March 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

If your IGP-product-manager-braindead-zombie-person really thinks that 3rd person is going to help MWO meet it's 'revenue targets'... at least do the requisite change management process and prove to everyone that there actually is a problem.

If you really believe as you do, Bryan, poll the entire Beta player population with a forced poll at game-startup. Display the unaltered on-the-fly results your website. Show us the demographics breakdowns in aggregate.

Until then: You're alienating your most dedicated players, your hardcore fans, and the people who gave you money when you had basically nothing at all built. You're breaking your word and our trust. In short, are screwing up badly. I hope you stop before the game dies.

we can HOPE they do something SMART before the game dies, but, as this fiasco clearly proves: they wont.

[Belisarius1]

To be honest, 3pv is a much smaller issue than consumables. I'm not a fan, but if they properly segregate it, make sure that ffp and 3pv do not play the same game, and - most importantly - make sure that 3pv players do not affect CW, then I don't mind if it's there as a game mode. There's plenty of game modes in plenty of games that I never touch.

This hasn't destroyed my trust in PGI. Provided they implement it intelligently, it will be a non issue. At worst, it will remove the parts of the playerbase that I probably didn't want to play against anyway.

Consumables and thinly-veiled pay-to-win, however... that one is well-and-truly destroying my trust in PGI.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

It's ok... PGI/IGP can't learn from the mistakes of past company's.

WoW has been steadily loosing players since Cata

ToR is called "ToRtannic" for a reason

Mass Effect 3's ending

Star Wars Galaxies gameplay change

Star Trek Online's beta group telling them how to make the game better and getting ignored.

It's ok PGI/IGP... your users don't know what they're talking about, keep forging forward, making these decisions that your users are against. You won't go the way of the dodo... I mean, there's this golden crop of amazing people that totally want to play this game you're working towards making right? This "Casual" crowd of CoD/Halo players out there that are totally going to be swayed away from the fast paced gameplay of of those games come play big stompy robots! I mean there's greener pastures out there right?

So you know what, stay the course! Do it! ATTAIN YOUR DREAMS!

[Iacov]

i think the option to opt-in/out is a very good idea!

i personally will definately go for mixed matches...i don't see any (dis)advantage in (not) using 3rd person...everybody should enjoy this game as he or she wants to

sounds good and can't wait to make screenshots of my K2 in action

[Mr Styx]

the poll's were a def no to this.......so only conclusion I can draw is that you have betrayed the core so much they are no longer spending money here so you need to milk a new audience

[Sarsin]

Problem: New players need visual feedback to learn how to steer their mech.
Additional Problem: 3rd person view provides a tactical advantage

Why don't we have a holographic representation of the mech in cockpit? We already have mech model bobble heads, why can't we have something in there for noobies that shows a 3D semi-transparent representation of their mech with little green arrows for the feet and torso?

Best of both worlds. It gives you a 3rd person view of your mech without compromising game play for others or segmenting the player base while introducing noobies to the interface they should be striving to use. I think all of the training stuff should be on the HUD/cockpit and enabled/disabled via tool tips or configurations.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Jade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

WoW has been steadily loosing players since Cata

i joined WoW back when it had NO expansions, otherwise known as Vanilla WoW. I remembered when you were a GOD if you had an Epic Mount. Then, an Epic FLYING mount in Burning Crusades. THEN they dumbed things down, made the mounts cheaper. Was ok with that, made it efficient to travel. Then they started to worry me when they kept lowering the level to get mounts, was ok with your FIRST level mount at 20, but when epic mounts were at like 30, it scared me. THEN they botched it in Cataclysm, made it nearly impossible to play casually.

Jade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Star Wars Galaxies gameplay change

3 little letters will send shudders down the spines of those in the know: NGE. To those who do not know those letters, it was like this: back in the day <PRE NGE> you had to EARN Jedi, and the Jedi were GODS. Then NGE hit. Gave Jedi to everyone, nerfed them into being weak.

Jade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Star Trek Online's beta group telling them how to make the game better and getting ignored.

that game got screwed up fast. Admittedly I came in during OPEN beta, but still, things got messed up badly, fairly quick.

[Carnage]

I have said it before and I will say it again. If PGI is going to implement 3rd person view (which they are) then players should only be able to see mechs that are visible in the first person cockpit view area, not behind you or around corners. That will stop people for using it to cheat.. There should also be no hud map. You should the able to switch from 3rd to 1st person in game on the fly. If PGI limits the view area to the same as 1st person and removed the hud map then I am all for it. There would then be no tactical advantage to using 3rd person view. plus the angle needs to be low and just above the head, not up and over so you can have a clear viewing advantage.

Plus, I live in Europe and we don't want 3rd person just as much as America. Stop blaming the Europeans or anyone else for the decisions of PGI. This is all about money and getting more people to play and pay, which is fine since no money = no game. I payed to play, just like a lot of people. But own up to your decisions and don't blame others.

[StandingCow]

I will start this by saying I am 100% against third person mode in matches, it just creates more issues and will divide the community. As one person stated... how would they even include this in community warfare?

I don't feel 3rd person mode is the correct way to teach people in this game. The CORRECT way is to have it in training grounds and in a tutorial only. Doing so will allow new players to learn and they can take time to figure out how to drive their mechs. They don't NEED 3rd person view all the time and in matches for this to be accomplished, the only reason people have trouble now is because they weren't taught or given the in game tools to learn.

This sort of reminds me of the whole... give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. If you just give people 3rd person mode... sure they might drive better, but it creates a whole complicated slew of issues in regards to separating the community (and will they lose 3rd person mode in CW? ). TEACH people how to drive through tutorials/trainings grounds, then let them out into the wild. Don't baby people.

Edited by StandingCow, 22 March 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[Tedarin]

What the hell?
This is not how this game was marketed...

It is so sad that the Mechwarrior IP is so cursed.
Now I only hope that this goes belly-up and some other continues on MWLL or something similar.
Because it really seems that there is no money to be made here without making a watered down product!

Cheers!


Edit: Seems post are disappearing now...

Constructive criticism:

• Make an in-game tutorial for the new players, not some rushed videos.
  
• Here the new players can practice in 3rd person, in the next tutorial they move on to 1st person.
  
• Next maybe a training ground with some friends, and if they still can't figure out how to drive a mech then maybe a 1st person mech simulator isn't their type of game.
  
• Make a 3rd person view when the game starts, from dropships etc, alternate this with the 1st person startup.
  
• But 3rd person view should not be allowed in combat. So...

• Startup: OK
  
• Game: Neg
  
• Death: OK
  
• Spectator: Neg

Edited by Tedarin, 22 March 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

StandingCow, on 21 March 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

I will start this by saying I am 100% against first person mode in matches, it just creates more issues and will divide the community. As one person stated... how would they even include this in community warfare?

wait what? then you go to blast 3rd. I think <hope> what was bolded/underlined was meant as third? just asking for clarification only.

[Zylo]

Sarsin, on 21 March 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Problem: New players need visual feedback to learn how to steer their mech.
Additional Problem: 3rd person view provides a tactical advantage

Why don't we have a holographic representation of the mech in cockpit? We already have mech model bobble heads, why can't we have something in there for noobies that shows a 3D semi-transparent representation of their mech with little green arrows for the feet and torso?

Best of both worlds. It gives you a 3rd person view of your mech without compromising game play for others or segmenting the player base while introducing noobies to the interface they should be striving to use. I think all of the training stuff should be on the HUD/cockpit and enabled/disabled via tool tips or configurations.

The solution is even easier:

I actually logged into World of Tanks after nearly a year away from the game but started a new account just to mess around with things. They have a new player mission that teaches new players all the basics of controlling their tank, aiming, even how to hide in shrubs.

If MWO could do a short tutorial even close to that showing new players how to torso twist, pointing out the option to lock arms and how the mech can travel in 1 direction while torso twisting to shoot in another direction. It could even cover the functions of ECM so new players understand what is going on with the low signal.

PGI - If nothing else a simple tutorial like this would go a long way to teaching new players the game. It might even be cheaper to develop a simple tutorial like this than designing everything to support 3rd person views and matchmaker options.

Nothing short of a good tutorial mission is going to help this game keep new players. Log in WoT and see what they did PGI. It's simple and if the same was done for MWO there probably wouldn't be any need for 3rd person view.

[grayson marik]

Ok, instead of throwing my opinion at you in the first sentence, Iam going to ask some questions first:

- How will you create turnaments, when a round could consist of 2 only 1stPV 3 only 3rdPV and 3 playing both modes in one team and an other such bad mix in the opposite team?
- How will you bring such teams together without forcing players to play the mode they hate most?
- Are you really willing to manage a split management for anything?
+starting from elo rankings ( one elo for both modes wont work as many 3rdPV players are horrible bad in 1stPV and vica versa)
+Statistics
+Tournaments
+netcode ballancing like state rewind? ( since state rewind tries to adjust to lag based on what the player could "see" on his screen, your calculations will be out of the window latest, when mixed teams fight each other)
+any line of sight calculation to be ballanced to both game modes?


And finally my opinion:
3rd PV has ben bad in all former MW titles and will couse almost the same problems again. And I think you people where aware about that when you first decided to keep MWO 1st Person and advertised as such.
Now you strive for more money but AGAIN ( and yes iam angry ), you turn into the wrong direction.
instead of opening pandoras box ( without hope being still in after all the bad came out) you should turn onto the social features of an MMO.

Without a Lobby, true friend lists, private messaging (ingame) and so much more that makes people stay, motivated and makes them create new online friends to play with -> all your eyecandy will be nothing more than wasted time and money!

Edited by grayson marik, 22 March 2013 - 12:02 AM.