2002 replies to this topic

[Huoshini]

New game type.....Trial mech only.

Under the launch button, make a game mode specifically for TRIAL MECHS. Only trial mechs would enter and they all have basic efficiencies unlocked. What does this do? COMPETATIVE PLAY! With this mode there would be no entry barrier if people want to play in COMPETATIVE matches. everyone would be on an even playing field and I think would be a lot of fun. What else could you do? Third pers view enabled during these matches! Ermahgurd! Even playing field? COMPETATIVE, fast paced play? Trial mech players not getting screwed? Holy **** I am a frekin genius. You're welcome...I await my check in the mail.

We probably won't see any official responses to this thread...I just remembered they are all probably at pax east

[Haruspice]

As long as CW is 1st person only , I don't really care about 1st/3rd queue.

[Viper69]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented. Understand we're not debating the merits of having 3rd person or not.

You guys at PGI explicitly told us no to 3rd person view and to coolant flushing during your funding campaigns. Now you tell us there is nothing we can say or do 3rd person view will be coming weather we like it or not. So not only are you lying to us about what you guys said to get our money initially but now your telling us "Too bad so sad" and not only that, you want our input on how to implement this idea that you know full well a ton of people are against. You know how insulting you sound asking that? Its arrogant, pompous and down right bad form to do what you guys are doing. If you would have said to us "We are not ruling out 3rd person view or coolant flushes as an ingame option" then people would still be mad but your integrity would be in tact.

You want our constructive input, that above was mine. I know you wont read it, hell you will probably have it deleted but I want you to personally know Bryan how I feel about you and your companies decision to do a 180. You figure out how you want to make this feature because you opened the box not us so dont put it on us to do your work for you.

Sincerely
John Q Viper

[WVAnonymous]

Aldrenean, on 22 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Just add an animation before your mech starts up where the camera spins in to the cockpit, giving you a nice view of your mech and paint job. Third Person is not going to help new players with the leg/torso disconnect that much, having it in Training Grounds should be plenty. A proper tutorial is what the game needs, not minor QOL adjustments. The torso twist indicators on the HUD are extremely intuitive, but if they're not pointed out to you for your first 10 rounds you're gonna have a bad time.

Another option would be to make 3PV only available to trial mechs with Cadet Bonus activated. Everyone knows trials are underpowered as hell, so I don't see many if any people complaining about new players in trial mechs using 3PV.

+1 for tutorial

Only trial mechs have 3PV is valid alternative to my 3PV module suggestion. It makes 3PV available on a limited basis and has real drawbacks.

[EyeOne]

I've considered not saying anything on this thread. Like the ECM thread, I have my thoughts but assumed others would be able to express them better than me.

But I'm at work, I don't feel like doing anything so here are my thoughts.

When I first got my closed beta invite the first thing I said when I dropped was "Is there 3rd person view?" This wasn't because I wanted to fight that way, I just wanted to see by mech. I wanted to see the animation and how it moved. I say this because I understand the desire for some people to have 3rd person view I guess.

All of the other MW games had 3rd Person view too. MW2's wasn't functional in combat (though it worked for looking around corners), MW3 had it but I don't recall if they allowed it in multiplayer, and if I recall correctly MW4 seperated the population for 1st and 3rd person options.

And 3rd person view being available in those games is fine because they had single player campaigns where you could "cheat" by looking around the corner, or over the hill and it wasn't a big deal because you weren't playing humans. So is the solution to divide the community?

Honestly, that would work just fine. I have no earthly idea if MWO has the numbers to support that. Don't take that as a insult, I don't mean it as one at all, I simply don't know. But if you are prepared to divide the community why would you do it for this and not for the PUG vs. Premade crowd? Personally I don't have a problem with one pot for everyone but given the outcry about it I would think it would be the #1 reason you would divide the community.

Bottom line. If you are going to have 3rd Person view in have it in the Training grounds and private matches only. It wouldn't be my recommendation for you to divide the community over this issue. But I would like the option to see my mech from time to time so I can check out the paint I paid for or something like that.

Again, I have a bachelor's degree in marketing, a love for games (and MWO), and a creative mind. Where can I send my resume? No seriously.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

So, in short.

PGI at the beginning during the kickstarter period also known as founders lied and falsely advertised/promised features would or would not be implemented as it did not fit the games design principles to purposefully obtain money by deception?

I don't know why people in this community are surprised by this, the playerbase is not growing its shrinking every day, they are not going to meet their financial targets so are taking drastic measures in an attempt at bringing in more players.

The problem is, the core demographic that would be here till the games death and continually spend money have been ignored at every turn, and so have ceased spending money shocking that...

There is no way Third person and First Person can co-exist in the same arena without Third Person having advantages, if there were many more games and better financially backed games would have done it already.

If 3rd person is to be implemented to HELP and AID NEW PLAYERS, then it should be available to them only, trial mechs, training ground only.

What your actually doing is fracturing your playerbase into impossible small localities that can not exist for healthy community warfare structure.

Your segregating EU/US/Asia based players, your segregating them again by FFP/3PV and then again by game mode.

Just how big exactly is your imaginary player base?

As usual your looking at the problem completely arse backwards, people stop playing your game for several reasons including disagreeing with design decisions, but most of all they stop playing for 2 large reasons.

• Lack of CONTENT
  
• Lack of progression - Seriously other than meat grinding each other here what is the point? what are we doing? What are we working towards? the game is boring long term.

Edited by DV McKenna, 22 March 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Brethgar]

As a long time 3rd person gamer, like Everquest, WoW, Conan, The Secret World, etc. I love 3rd person views. I like to see all the neat gear I am carrying and the cool outfits I earned. I would love to see my mech from this perspective.

However, when driving a mech with limited view out the side windows, it just feels right. It is perfect for aiming and shooting. 1st person is just better immersion in this case. 3rd person is more for a target select and fling arrows type game. MWO is not that.

On the other hand, if it were to be implemented, I would suggest it being a brief "hold the button for 20 seconds max" type view then go back to the cockpit. That way you get a peek at the Commando humping your leg or the Raven up your Atlas's tailpipe or that sneaky Stalker that is about to completely ruin your day by breaking the restraining order.

I highly suggest this be tested in training/testing grounds only first to see what kind of feedback/impact it will have.

I would also agree that 3rd person should not be allowed for CW or competitions as the only view format. To keep things competitive and even I think 1st person should be the "hard mode".

I honestly can't say if 3rd person will give an advantage or not without seeing it in action, but I am certain it would make it harder for me personally to make pinpoint sniping shots from that angle.

[cepera]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.
  
• Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.

If you can make two new game modes - both team deathmatch (without base capture), but one with 1st person view only, and other one with 3rd person view, and players will be able to choose between them, you'll have very descriptive statistic, showing if game actually needs 3rd person view at all.

[Hirengurth]

The core of mech warrior has always been a sim type game. I have no problem with thre being a 3rd person camra but, agree that players in first person should play against those in first and those in third should play against those in 3d. Mixing the two will cause a host or issues mainly those in first will always have a view disadvantage no matter how you setup a 3rd person camra.

Now I am worried that the playerbase is far to small to take a harsh split like that.

The other issue is what view type you intend to balance on. If balancing around first person you will likely add even more advantage to 3rd person and if you balance things around 3rd person you will like weaken first in the process. I just ask you be extremely carefull with adding such a tactically superior camra mode.

Also please do not make the default to be paired with both as that will make it more difficult for newer players having to deal with another advantage players have on them. I would advise it to auto pair you with whatever camra mode you are in unless you have chosen otherwise.

[Paul Inouye]

I've been asked to monitor this thread heavily. Bryan has asked for constructive ideas on HOW to implement 3rd person that you think would be fair. This is not a debate whether 3rd person is going into the game or not. I'm personally not a big fan of 3rd person but I will help Bryan achieve what he needs for MWO to be a success across all demographics and territories.

That being said, I am hiding any post that is just a rant/"OMG you suck for implementing this" post in this thread. This is also not a thread to have arguments with other posters. Post your opinion on how you can see this possibly working and move on.

[Vassago Rain]

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I've been asked to monitor this thread heavily. Bryan has asked for constructive ideas on HOW to implement 3rd person that you think would be fair. This is not a debate whether 3rd person is going into the game or not. I'm personally not a big fan of 3rd person but I will help Bryan achieve what he needs for MWO to be a success across all demographics and territories.

That being said, I am hiding any post that is just a rant/"OMG you suck for implementing this" post in this thread. This is also not a thread to have arguments with other posters. Post your opinion on how you can see this possibly working and move on.

Paul, I posted a few pages earlier, with an anime girl. It essentially sums up what's needed at this stage. You might want to rewrite it and put it in the OP, so people know what the challange at hand actually is.

[JuiceKeeper]

Hey, personaly i dont mind 3d person till it will be implemented in fair play.(Personaly i am not gonna use it since i found much more fun inside cockpit)
I am more worried what will happen if u start to split us into 3rd person group and non 3rd person group.
First this 2 groups if created will hate each other definitly. It will come naturaly couse one group will think the other one is better and they should have more say. Which in the end will just create moar problems for u guys.
Also splitting us even more? We will be splitted allready on regions which will take numbers from active players down and when u will split those regions into 3 more groups i hope we will have enough players to play it. I am also curious how u wanna solve CW with all 3 options becouse teams will not be able to have cross fighting between non 3rd person group and 3rd person groups for same planet. Or mixed thats even crazier and it takes fair play from those matches which means this would be only possible on games which wouldnt add any bonus for factions.
Also it will create loads of work for future events and weekend missions etc if u have stuff planned like this becouse you will have to create different ladders for each group.
Personaly i would welcome 3rd person in training area and future tutorial if there will be any.
Or maybe some consumable which would work only like 30secs or it would be sort of robot camera which would be shootable ingame. But consumable might create problem that everyone will by buying it for important games. Theres definitly way to implement it somehow somewhere.

[Daeso]

This is a tough one and I don't know if it was already stated because frankly there are entirely too many posts for me to catch up on. The current state is that everyone plays in 1st person, if the situation arises and all of a sudden 3rd person does evolve and get implemented and now I am playing 1st person against only a fraction of the player base as I was before..... well I guess we will have to wait and see.

Same goes for the opposite side too, if I switch to only 3rd person and only want to play 3rd person but there isn't a 3rd person player base, do those people quit your game?

In all honesty I don't know what will happen. I do know that I am a 1st person advocate and I don't want to lose thousands of players to the same game different mechanic.

[Rema86]

* looks at the clock 29 pages later. Man that took ages to read. Now I remember why I don't do
forums much anymore.

Imma keep this in a simple like/no like format of how i'd like this to be implemented, using
the points in the first post and suggestions in the thread. Seeing as that is the main feedback he asked for. Hench my opinion is formed not only from personal perspective but also from some ideas other people here have already suggested that I really liked.

My background:
Played as a competitive player around the ut99/quake days.
Mostly casual'd down since then. Now split my time between mwo and whatever populair game
comes around next due to rl restrictions. Started MechWarrior with MW4 vengeance, wasn't exactly a hardcore fan. Only after playing MWO did I become intrested in it's universe's background novels.

Pretty much spot on for your target audience.

Me likes:
-As a unrestrained view training tool/toggle in the upcoming scripted training grounds. Yes, mostly adds value.
-As a unrestrained view toggle in the Testing grounds. Yes, again can come in handy adds value.
-As a 3rd person consumable scout drone. Yes, adds a modern gameplay aspect.
-As a module, toggling the minimap through a set of small 3rd person/rear view/minimap views.
Yes, see above. (means they need to implement camera in camera view for cryengine though.)
-As a spectators option (for after you died or join a lobby/random game as spectator slot) Hell yes.Provided perspective is somewhat limited so the advantage from dead teammates helping alive ones remains acceptable.
-As a unranked private match lobby mutator style checkbox. Yes, more power to the masses.
-As a 1v1 3rd person arena/dual style gametype. Sure, Maybe even add a nice axe eventually.

Me no likes:
-As a prematch option (view the first 30 secs of a match 3rd person) No, Betty would be mad at me for having to scream louder. (Current startup sequence is good as is.)

-From a player perspective playing against 1st and 3rd person players or ingame toggle in ranked regular gametypes.
Prefferably not in ranked games/gametypes.
If you absolutely must then please from some kind of
fixed limited view angle/limited zoomable rear/shoulder perspective toggle so that you don't gain a massive advantage. I really don't like people using it to look over a hill or around a corner.

1st person provides that unique MW atmosphere that makes this game stand-out
from the 'other' f2p games in a time already swamped with tons of arcady games.
The fear to leave cover, dreading 4 enemy mechs being around the corner while you have only one buddy backing you. That kind of tension ingame would be greatly deminished if non-existent.

In spite of some people going against it, I agree with Duncan Longwood that supressive fire
is a valid tactic. plenty of times have I watched a mech back off because I shelled hell at his
cockpit. In allot of those sitations, you can cause hesitation on the enemy's part.

Free 3rd person rotable/zoomable view would negativly impact those kind of things and also encourage twitch based arm aiming/gunning. Not knowing what's behind that pesky lil hill or if you are allone keeps them thinking. This represents how I see the first appealing game in ages that manages to combine the old school feeling with a modern pvp setup. I feel that's a great part of the attraction towards this game.

And last I checked, this was still a thinking person's shooter, not a twitch based running game.
(because rapid robot arm movements with 3rd person CAN make that happen, regardless of torso twist since it will be easier to anticipate the enemy.)

-Play against 1st/3rd person players only option via matchmaking in regular gametypes.
Absolutely do not like, that would split the playerbase further. I like getting a european server, but I do not think MWO is big enough to support a split between arcade/hardcore yet. Not to mention that it could move it away from it's pilot view focus and the MW 'feeling' mentioned in the above point.

Midly offtopic:
How about setting up a public testing server with its own forum to prevent these kind of threads. Also, Bryan owes me a beer for making me write all this up. (I'm sure shipping costs to the Netherlands won't be that bad.)

[Bilbo]

As long as you cannot see over hills or around corners with it. I can't see it being an issue one way or another. If you can, then there is a problem, but since you will be able to opt in or out of it's use, I honestly can't understand the outcry.

[BoyWonder]

You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.
  
• Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.

We have enough trouble getting a mixture of teams on 8 mans... Oh, and you want to split off the Euros?

[Windies]

Bilbo, on 22 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

As long as you cannot see over hills or around corners with it. I can't see it being an issue one way or another. If you can, then there is a problem, but since you will be able to opt in or out of it's use, I honestly can't understand the outcry.

Just because you can opt in and out of it doesn't mean that others in a match won't be using it. Now I've read that they intend to implement it so that it will segregate the player base based on 3 options of 1pv, 3pv, 1pv/3pv mixed. The problem is that the player base is not large enough to be split 3 ways and still maintain healthy queue times while still maintaining ELO ranking. They already had to broaden ELO search parameters to the point it's practically useless, now imagine splitting the player base 3 ways.

Eventually it's going to come down to a point where it's either 3pv or 1pv. You can't segregate your player base 3 ways, when your hope is to actually increase your player base. It also doesn't solve the numerous issue's that are truly keeping new players from becoming invested and interested, like lack of content, hard to understand mechanics due to lack of a tutorial or proper documentation, numerous balance issue's that you can only overcome by learning the hard way over and over again...

I would venture to say that most new players really don't have a hard time understanding where they are facing or where they are moving, but rather a hard time understanding why they can't lock on to something or what that eye icon is or what the maximum/minimum range on LRM's or SRM's are. For that matter they probably don't understand minimum and maximum and optimal range value's very well. Customization is probably a hard thing to grasp as well because trying to find a balance between heat, firepower, mobility and surviveability can be a challenge. Those are some of the issue's that keep new players from becoming extremely interested in this game, not an exploitable third person view.

How do you expect PGI to implement a third person view that's going to allow new players to see more than they can in the cockpit so they supposedly have an easier time navigating, without letting them see more than they can in the cockpit to nullify any tactical advantage 3pv might give?

[paladin yst]

THANK YOU SO MUCH PGI!!!!!!!!!!

Been waiting for this for a long long long time, was actually extremely surprised we dont have it at closed beta till now. Anyway finally I can see my camo spec, afterall those money paid.

FANTASTIC WORK!!! KEEP IT UP!!!

[Henry Pride]

Heeden, on 21 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Totally agree with 3rd person mode for Training Grounds if nothing else.

Also if you ever manage to put new players (i.e. people still earning cadet bonus) into their own pool they could do with 3rd person mode (personally I wouldn't mind facing a trial mech with 3rd person even if I could only have first).

Anything else, I think 3rd person mode should be limited to a few "novelty" game types. Possibly with lower CBill/MC rewards to encourage 1st person to be the "main" mode.

This is based on the assumption that 3rd person is good for training and can be a fun quirk, but 1st person is the way MW is supposed to be played.

I dont like the fact, that 3rd Person View WILL appear in this game, but IF u HAVE to bring it, take this idea. This not Gamebraking and not splitting too much at all.

[anfadern]

I suggest 1st to 3rd person can be implemented in a manner similar to WOT, i.e. pilot choose to sit inside of the vehicle or hover above it on several different distances. I fully support your choice and believe that it will make the game easier to play for the beginners.