2002 replies to this topic

[raygun]

paladin yst, on 22 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

THANK YOU SO MUCH PGI!!!!!!!!!!

Been waiting for this for a long long long time, was actually extremely surprised we dont have it at closed beta till now. Anyway finally I can see my camo spec, afterall those money paid.

FANTASTIC WORK!!! KEEP IT UP!!!

if this is one of the reasons why a 3rd person camera is added, wouldn't that also make all the cockpit items that are for sale basically worthless and a waste of resources?

[Smoove]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.
  
• Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.

As stated elsewhere, this is a good way to split the player base. So in an effort to reduce/eliminate this, I offer the following:

One possible way to have 1st and 3rd person players play together and not provide one with any more benefits than the other is to have a fog of war for the 3rd person, hiding anything that can't be seen by the same mech in 1st person view. Can probably just get away with just hiding the mechs that can't be seen (seeing terrain shouldn't help that much except for completely new players). Sure, that means a mech may just pop into existence when you go around the corner, but that has the same effect as going around the corner and running into an Atlas in 1st person.

I don't know how easy/hard that would be to implement, if even possible, but it at least gets rid of the FOV criticism of 3rd person. By eliminating these kind of advantages from 3rd person, it shouldn't matter if my opponents (or teammates) are in 1st or 3rd person.

Other than that, I can see it being nice to switch between 1st and 3rd in the training ground and maybe spectator mode (although would need same FOV restriction as above), but locked to one or the other in a drop.

[Scyther]

<Snipped from another post on 3rd person topic, I cut out the parts where I say I think 3rd person view is inappropriate for MWO>

I am often frustrated in game by what feels like my 'limited' cockpit view, but given the storyline and setup of the game, that is exactly what a mech pilot would experience.

The only way I can see integrating 3rd person view into the game would be by tieing it to equipment like the BAP or possibly a C3 command module (or both). That would add some interest to those options (currently the BAP is fairly useless) but might cause other issues.

I think you would have to limit the view range to 400 or 500m, have it either visual-only or perhaps use some modified wire-frame or schematic view (to simulate what the BAP would transmitting), and not allow target acquisition of mechs not visible to normal view.

<end copy>

By visual-only, I mean seeing mechs and movement etc but not the icons, ECM symbols etc that would not normally be visible. Unless that was combined with BAP or C3 to give that information.


Badger

[Aldrenean]

JuiceKeeper, on 22 March 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Or maybe some consumable which would work only like 30secs or it would be sort of robot camera which would be shootable ingame. But consumable might create problem that everyone will by buying it for important games. Theres definitly way to implement it somehow somewhere.

Wow, I actually love this idea. Maybe not even as a consumable, just if you enable 3rd person you have a drone that flies behind you when you're using it, and maybe docks on your back as an "extra" component that can be shot off even when you're in 1st person. It sure would be interesting, if split queues are definitely happening this is the only way I would play 3v1PV.

[Huoshini]

All I have to say is...wow....

The most direct reply we have ever gotten on the forums and it happens to be one of the most offensive from a dev.

Well if 3rd has to be imemented...make the field of view only be that of what the cockpit of a mech would normally allow while hovering over your mech.

Ugh.....lose sales on cockpit items, why don't ya...

[Super Mono]

I'm not sure there is a good way to implement 3rd person camera with the separate queues as Bryan outlined in the OP. If the queues are the same in every way aside from camera players will naturally gravitate towards one of them to find a queue populated enough to have games on.

If 3rd person is intended as a stepping board for new players, and have them graduate permanently to the first person camera queue (either by incentives or by force) then it runs the risk of depopulating the 3rd person queue so that future new players can't find matches.

Separate queues could be eliminated and 3rd person could be used for a limited number of matches on each account but this could be a another mechanic to potentially confuse and frustrate new players.

3rd person camera could be rendered nearly useless for combat by adding obstructing filters to the view limiting visibility and distance as well as making the camera slow and ponderous so that it's difficult to get sight on a maneuvering opponent. Basically make it so it's only useful to tell which way your mech's sections are facing and what's at the mech's feet. if done carefully 3rd person might be integrated as a regular mechanic and the multiple player queues can be avoided.

This will also make 3rd person camera almost entirely unsuited for new players, which would defeat the purpose of this whole exercise.. Expanding on what I mentioned above a useful 3rd person camera could be what's used for new accounts then after a set amount of matches it degrades into the garbage version. This is still another mechanic that new players would need to learn and potentially get frustrated by however.

[Fenix0742]

I don't think a toggle for 3rd person can be implemented well. As others have mentioned, it poses problems for CW. Also, what happens if potential customers complain that wait times are too long for matchmaking because not as many people are playing in 3rd person only lists on their particular server? Will that "never be forced to match with a 3rd person player" go the way of weight class-based matching when ELO was implemented?

If 3rd person is to be implemented, I think it should be for the first 25 games while the new player is receiving a cadet bonus, and then only in (a hopefully more robust) training grounds. Perhaps disable 3rd person availability upon spending MC to avoid a P2W situation where people create new accounts and use MC to get fully kitted mechs (something that would be prohibitively expensive, but technically possible)

[Paul Inouye]

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work.

These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Fenix0742, on 22 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

I don't think a toggle for 3rd person can be implemented well. As others have mentioned, it poses problems for CW. Also, what happens if potential customers complain that wait times are too long for matchmaking because not as many people are playing in 3rd person only lists on their particular server? Will that "never be forced to match with a 3rd person player" go the way of weight class-based matching when ELO was implemented?

If 3rd person is to be implemented, I think it should be for the first 25 games while the new player is receiving a cadet bonus, and then only in (a hopefully more robust) training grounds. Perhaps disable 3rd person availability upon spending MC to avoid a P2W situation where people create new accounts and use MC to get fully kitted mechs (something that would be prohibitively expensive, but technically possible)

Or what happens when everyone wants to cheat and use 3rd person and the first person, the "sacrosanct vision of the battletech experience" dries up?

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work.

These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

How about no reticle or HUD info at all in 3rd person as youre not looking through your HUD anymore.
Also, make it so you cant see behind you given thats an advantage you dont get in cockpit as well.

[Bguk]

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.

This will confuse players more than help. If anything, locking on an axis would be better.

Have it only in the tutorial/training ground.

[syngyne]

The only ways I think I'd be comfortable with third person view:

• Mentioned elsewhere, but make it for Trial 'Mechs only, to help new players figure their controls out.
  
• A consumable, limited duration UAV for intelligence gathering during a match.
  
• A match replay mode, where we can record matches and play them back from cockpit views, chase cams, or free roaming cams. I'd really like to see something like this eventually.

Edited by syngyne, 22 March 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Denno]

The only way I can see this (possibly) work is if fpv ends up default somehow for all competitive/FW play with no chance of hacking 3pv in fpv engagements.

You want 3pv? Fine for training, solo and 4 mans (not really, but meh...).

8 man and up should force fpv and be standard. Period.

edit: I also remember a dev stating a while back that information denial is a huge part of ballance in a game like this. 3pv will be increased information, basically for free, which is why fpv must be standard for competitive play/fw.

Edited by Denno, 22 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Squigles]

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work.

These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

I see you say you can't "target" something without 1pv LOS...does this mean things don't render at all if you can't see it from your cockpit? Or does this just mean you can't tap the R button to put a pretty red box around it?

Even if it DOES mean things you can't see don't "pop-in" until you can see them from 1PV, I can tell you now this would be a kick in the trousers to my stealthy light scout. Textures popping in tends to draw the eye and make it easy to ID me even at a decently long range. While if you can see things at all times and just not target...that's still an advantage to 3pv. Rendering all mechs all the time would still provide an advantage for seeing around cover....unless you're nerfing the FOV to such an extent that 3PV is basically worse then 1PV.

....I'm ok with that actually.

Edited by Squigles, 22 March 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Pierce Rossignol]

You want 3PV but you want to keep the realism of immersion? Too easy.

Toggling 3PV places the pilot on top of the mech and gives him his own hitbox.

So go on, pop the top hatch and have a look around. Lemme know how that goes for you.

Problem solved.

[Blowfeld]

As a player I have no problem with the implementation of 3rd person view, as long as I have the option to chose to fight only 1st person players as it is right now.
As PGI offers this option, I do not see the problem. I am not sure if it totally widens the target group, but if it is so, that is a thing all players profit from in the long run.

Looking forward to the introduction of 3rd person view to see how it plays out and how well it is implemented.

No need for all the unconstructive criticism across the forums these days. It saddens me to see how mean this community has grown and that everybody seems to just waiting to pull out his forks and torches as they seem to enjoy their outrage...

[DirePhoenix]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Here are the facts.

• Yes we are currently working on a 3rd person option for MWO.
  
  [...]

We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.

• Standard forum rules apply, please be kind, courteous, and clearly communicated your ideas or opinions.
  
• This is not the place to say you dislike 3rd person.

Ok, well first let me get this out of the way, that I think this is a very bad idea to implement third person view into this game. That is not to say that I dislike 3rd person, but I don't think it is right for this game, the game I thought I was going to be getting when it was announced a few years ago. The game that I thought was a good enough idea that I chipped in for an Elite Founder's package first and later upgraded to a Legendary Founder's package for.

However, simply not having a 3rd person view is apparently no longer an option, perhaps because someone didn't think it through about exactly how much this is a bad idea, so now we have to come up with a way to implement this bad idea without destroying the game and still making it so that people will want to play it (and perhaps even spend money on it).

Well, you sir, are in luck, because I have not one, not two, but THREE options (so far) that I believe would be viable to implement this bad idea with minimal impact on the "core" MechWarriors that were targeted with premise of having the "experience of a 'mech pilot", while still providing options to those less-than-well-suited for mech simulators! (all method names are subject to change)

Option 1: The "hop out of your hatch" method: (from 18 November 2012)
(spoilered for size)

Spoiler

DirePhoenix, on 17 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

I've posted this several times before, and I don't know if people haven't seen it due to all the other noise in the forum or haven't seen it b/c they've been blinded by nerdrage, but I've offered an example of how to pull off a third-person view in this game that shouldn't break immersion (especially for those that don't want it) and shouldn't result in having to have the game split the playerbase into 2 different camera modes of play.

I will say first that I am outright AGAINST any form of third-person combat view. What I will accept is a third-person non-combat view. How does that work?

Similar to the in-cockpit freelook, have a keybind toggle that you have to hold down to snap into a third-person camera with motion centered around your 'mech. The key feature: NO WEAPONS OR TARGETING CAPABILITY WHILE USING THIS MODE. This third-person view is for looking around ONLY. You can't fire weapons, you lose your HUD, and you cannot control your 'mech in this view. If you had your throttle set before you snapped into third person view, your 'mech continues moving in the same direction and speed until you hop back into your cockpit.

I have mentioned before that this could actually be of use for scouts that are capable of identifying and reporting 'mech types, movement, and direction manually, without the aid of a HUD or targeting computer. What they could do is shut down, pop into third person view and take a peek around, as if they were poking their heads out the hatch. Currently scouting while shut down is near useless because of the angle that the 'mechs tilt when shut down, so that their cockpits are facing the ground instead of straight ahead. However, even this has limited use as it relies on the scout to give manual information on enemy location and movement, and the team does not receive targeting telemetry through their battle computers.

To reiterate, implement this as a toggle view mode (like the current freelook), but while using it, you have no weapons, no targeting, and cannot change 'mech throttle or direction. You can only look around (without the aid of a HUD, zoom, or vision modes) while using third person view, and have to hop back into the cockpit (first person view) to actually do anything.

Option 2: The "Consumable drone" method: (from this thread, 21 Mar 2013)
(spoilered for size)

Spoiler

DirePhoenix, on 21 March 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

First, don't split the playerbase into different view modes. They're already being segregated enough by region (to reduce lag) and factions/merc corps (for teamplay) and Elo score (for balancing matches).

Now how to employ a third person view in a first-person game:

Consumable Module: External Camera (C-Bill version):

• A camera that feeds into the MechWarrior's neurohelmet is lifted into the air via balloon. The balloon is tethered to the 'mech via a cable feed, which the pilot can extend/reel-in to vary the distance the balloon floats from the 'mech by a limited degree.
  
  • This balloon can be shot down by direct weapons fire (Energy/Ballistic/SRMs), but cannot be locked on by targeting computers or missiles
    
    • 1 point of damage should be enough to disable/destroy the camera
  • The balloon is transparent (although the camera module itself and the cable are not), and presents a small target
    
  • The camera feed can be interrupted/disabled by ECM.
    
  • While the camera feed may offer a view over the player's 'mech, it doesn't necessarily offer LoS info from the player's weapons to the target. First-person view will be superior for direct-fire combat
    
    • Also, you cannot gain targeting info from targets not in your 'mech's LoS. If you wouldn't be able to target it before, you wouldn't be able to target it now, even if your camera feed can show it visually.
  • As a consumable, the module must be re-purchased if destroyed/disabled
    
    • possibly also after use, but maybe the player can "reel it back in" if they manage to keep their balloon the entire match

Consumable Module: Improved External Camera (MC version):

• Same as the C-Bill version except instead of being lifted into the air via balloon, it operates as a quad-rotor helodrone (still tethered to the 'mech).
  
• While providing an even smaller target, it still suffers the rest of the limitations of the C-Bill version

Option 3: The "Training Wheels" method: (from right now, off the cuff, because I'm fly like that)
(spoilered for consistency)

Spoiler

Ok, people want a Third-Person view. There are several decent reasons why: 'Mech orientation, learning controls, taking sweet screenshots... well, those are about all the 'decent' reasons I can think of.

However, playing in a Third-Person view is counter to the premise of "having the experience of a 'mech pilot" that brought the initial crowd into the game, and I think it's counter of what you guys will want to offer players in the long run. For some people, it's just harder for them to grasp simulator gaming than others. Being cramped in a cockpit can be claustrophobic. I myself have friends that love BattleTech, but could never really get the hang of using a joystick or throttle and felt left out from the previous MW games because that was "the way" to get the "mech pilot experience".

(interestingly enough, when I tell these same friends that this iteration of MWO is actually more mouse/keyboard friendly than joystick friendly {and I don't really see a way around that with the separate arm movement feature}, they reply with, "Ugh... that just doesn't seem right at all...")

We have a "Training Grounds" feature that lets players test loadouts and builds, and maybe get used to controls, but it's nowhere near enough to get them used to controlling a 'mech. Even if the Training Grounds eventually gets updated with AI 'mechs instead of target dummies, new players need to train with and against real players.

Enter "Training Wheels" mode. This mode provides players, especially new players, with gameplay options that includes a toggle-able(?) third-person view. "Training Wheels" players will play against other players that are using "Training Wheels" mode. Players in "Training Wheels" mode will not be facing off against regular players.

There are some limitations though:

• First, "Training Wheels" mode is meant to get players accustomed to First-Person View. It has a Third Person view as an option to help new players adapt and get used to piloting a 'mech while facing off against other, real "Training Wheels" players so they eventually won't need it and can take their training wheels off to join the regular players.
  
• "Training Wheels" mode players will not be contributing to Community Warfare until they stop using their training wheels.
  
  • This should cut down the need split the playerbase into 3 different servers for each type of view mode (1st only, 3rd only, 1st & 3rd combined) in each region.
    
  • Depending on the concentration of people using "Training Wheels", you could have as few as 1 cross-region server specificially for "Training Wheels", and one server for each region for "Regular play". That's 3 instances of the Inner Sphere (NA, EU, Pacific), and 1 instance of "Training Wheels" instead of 9 instances of the Inner Sphere.
• "Training Wheels" mode players earn XP and CBills at half the regular rates (once outside of their cadet period) until they're ready to put their big-boy pants on and join the rest of the game.
  
  • hopefully this may curb some "L33T Hardcores" from jumping into the kiddie pool to pwn some EZ newbs, but some people are probably going to be complete jerks no matter what
• Players are free to swap back and forth between "Training Wheels" and "Regular" modes as easy as selecting Conquest or Assault matches currently, based on their comfort level with the controls.
  
  • If players want to grab some sweet screens of their 'mechs in action (and I don't blame them), they can also hop back into "Training Wheels" mode to take some pics. (alternately I have a separate idea that may allow for people to grab screens and external video that I will outline below)

So there you go. Three options. I could probably think of more ways to make this bad idea work, but I think that's fine for now. Any more and I'm going to have to ask that you bring me on as a Systems Designer or something, but I'm going to have to either be able to telecommute or have some sort of relocation compensation to rip me from my paradise in sunny San Diego to carve out a career in the untamed frozen tundralands of Western Canuckistan. My asking price is US$5M, up front, in unmarked bills*. It may sound pricey, but I will figure out a way to implement even the worst ideas in a way that will still work.

* price is negotiable

Oh, before I forget:

Replay Mode (not technically a third person gameplay view mode, but may offer some of the same things that people are wanting out of a third person view)
(spoilered because we can't stop here! This is bat country!)

Spoiler

• During a gameplay match, MWO will save a file with the data regarding 'mech movement and actions over the course of the match. (not unlike HALO 3's replay system**)
  
  • as matches can last up to 15 minutes with data from possibly 24 'mechs (or maybe higher depending on how clans are implemented), the file may grow to be fairly large, so unless manually saved (with a user-specified name), this "default" replay file may be overwritten over the course of the next match.
• This file can be replayed after the round is finished.
  
  • This prevents players from being able to give out intelligence about the enemy during live gameplay from a "spectator mode"
    
    • A live spectator mode would probably be something that may be desirable to be developed for something like eSports hosting/Solaris VII Arena spectating (note: not for actual participants in the match, but outside spectators to watch)
• During replay, the camera is in "free mode", separated from your 'mech, and you can move around the map freely
  
  • Full playback controls (play/pause/rewind/ff) are also available
    
  • This should enable players to get screenshots from any angle, as well as potentially allow for machinima/video editing.

** oh look, I'm one of Richard Garriott's "lazy developers"!!!

Edited by DirePhoenix, 22 March 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Icepick]

Arrgh. Well, if it is a done deal, I s'pose it was good of you to let us know. I don't like it at all, but I have some thoughts about how to do it well. Here they are:

First, let me say what I think the problem will be (and was, for other MW titles), and that is battlefield awareness. The reason it was hated was that it allowed players to see things that they shouldn't be able to. Poptarts could line up shots from behind cover, etc. I fear the brawl will give way to poptarting and hill-humping, just as it did in MW4.

• Give us a better HUD first, with indicators for missing components, weapon door indicators, HTAL etc.
  
• Tightly limit the up down adjustment. Definitely do not allow much altitude adjustment.
  
• Try to keep the centerpoint as close as possible to the top of the mech. I don't know how you can do this really, but it limits the advantage at least a little.
  
• Add a little shake to the reticules of jumping mechs to combat extreme-range jump sniping.

Honestly I think that a better option to 3rd is a removal of the cockpit graphics with a 360 movable camera like a flight sim. Check-six button, and selected target tracking would be good too.

Another option is to make third-person less useful by removing the business end of the HUD. Allow the compass and battlegrid, but no target info or pipper. This keeps the fighting in the 'pit, and the looking around stuff in third-person.

Dunno. I'll get used to it I guess. We will see.

[Chavette]

Quote

When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.

This is a good idea, but its all about the implementation.

You have to remember who you are pleasing here, the guys who are crying because they don't have their beloved 3rd person view will definitely continue crying if you removed their HUD...

So that kind of intrusive gimping wouldn't have its place, but some proper camera tricks could work, but the sheer chance of getting it right both conceptually and technically, with no way to abuse it are small, and maybe not worth the effort as a whole.

If you are solely trying to please new players, I really think there are avenues that require less work with more rewards.

We don't see alot of "I'm leaving this game after 2 hours because there's no 3rd person" posts, but we do see alot of those kind of posts because of lacking amount of information provided to new players, and poor presentation of basic concepts of the game.

Edited by Chavette, 22 March 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Blowfeld]

raygun, on 22 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

if this is one of the reasons why a 3rd person camera is added, wouldn't that also make all the cockpit items that are for sale basically worthless and a waste of resources?

But maybe there will be an increase in selling paintjobs, as players will see that their mech looks more ugly than the others all the time. I can see them making more money by paint than by cockpit items, but I might be very wrong

[Matt Newman]

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work. These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

Also talked about not making switching from first to 3rd and back a transition that takes time there for it can't be spammed.

I think the biggest point to make is.

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPLETELY AVOID IT AND NEVER USE IT OR PLAY WITH SOMEONE WHO IS USING IT.