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Ecm: A Perspective From A Guy That Works With Real Ecm In The Real World. (Please Read This, It's A Serious Bit Of Info That Adds Something New)


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#1 no coast punk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

I know this topic has been beat to death, but I got a pretty good response on reddit for this, so I thought I would try it here.

I work with real ECM in the real world. As such, I have some unique perspective on how electronic warfare battles play out in the real world and can give some new perspective to the topic from a game balance perspective.

To understand ECM, you need to understand some fundamentals of how radio works.


Think of radio like light. You communicate by varying the color (FM) or brightness (AM) of your light. Radar is basically bouncing light off things and measuring how it long it takes for your bounced light to get back to you.


ECM basically works by somebody having a brighter light than yours that is doing weird **** like flashing and changing their color so that somebody else looking for your light (or you, looking for the reflection from your own light) has a much harder time seeing it.


To get around this, you might say, make your light only work at a very specific color of blue for a second, then a very specific color of red shortly after. You tell the guy trying to see your light to use a filter for your very specific color of blue, then quickly switch to your color of red.


If you have your own big *** bright jamming light, you can filter it yourself. Say... put a filter that blocks all blue light over your jammer at the exact same instant that you are sending a message in blue on your communicating light.



He will now be able to see your light and only your light, no matter how bright somebody elses light is, unless they land on your specific color. If you change your color fast enough, and synchronize with someone else, it becomes much easier to get your message across.



When it comes to radar, the bright light jammer still works. You can't see your own light you are sending out get bounced back. Why? Because all you see is bright light everywhere.



ECM = the bright light trying to counter your own light. ECCM = things like using filters and color changes.



FWIW, from a real electronics warfare standpoint (and a game balance one), the BAP should show an approximate bearing that an ECM equipped mech is in (say, a bar on your heading indicator that covers a jittery 10 degree sweep).




Why? All of that ECM "light" is super easy to see. The BAP should be able to "see" and triangulate (approximately) that very bright light.

Ever driven in the middle of nowhere on a super dark night? Ever seen headlights over a hill? You can't see the headlights, but you can see their atmospheric scattering. You have no idea where that other car is, but you know it's over there in an approximate direction. This is basically what a system like the BAP would see.

BAP shouldn't impact targeting, as targeting radar needs to be much more precise than simply "there is a bright light somewhere over there". Game balance (and reality) could still be preserved by kicking the targetable range of an ECM equipped mech out a bit (say 50 meters in the mechwarrior world) for a BAP equipped mech.

Anybody within a hostile ECM bubble should have their comms jammed.

However, a twist on this is this: If two or more friendly mechs are within range to target an ECM equipped hostile, this targeting data SHOULD be relayed to friendlies. The real world reasons behind this are complicated, but it involves triangulation, Doppler shift and frequency hopping.

From a game balance perspective, this would be a huge nerf to your typical ECM raven. That guy who runs into a group of friendlies and lays waste with impunity.


From a game balance perspective, it would keep the intent of ECM intact (a lone scout to harass at the fringes of a battle, and gather data).


It would require more involvement on behalf of the ECM pilot too. An "off" mode would have to be added. This would render the mech invisible over the horizon to BAP equipped mechs. When an ECM pilot comes into real detection range of a hostile, they will have to light the system off. This renders them visible to BAP equipped mechs, but invisible to non BAP equipped mechs.




The "counter" mode of the current ECM implementation is actually perfectly valid from an electronics warfare perspective. The hardware is all the same, it's just a question of what it is doing. Mostly it involves the principal "destructive interference"

http://en.wikipedia....ve_propagation)

The counter mode is still not a "win" button. BAP mechs will still be able to see all of that "light". It also makes you vulnerable to being targeted.

This makes electronic warfare a more involved process from the perspective of an ECM pilot. It is not simply a "win" button. It creates a weakness for ECM. Provides a valid and important use for the BAP. Provides an incentive for teamwork (Dedicated electronic warfare guys in a lance). It also seriously nerfs the biggest ***** that people have about the current ECM implementation (that 3L that wades in and annihilates a few assaults single handedly).

Edited by no coast punk, 21 March 2013 - 05:08 PM.


#2 Zyllos

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:18 PM

Just an FYI, you might want to reformat your post.

#3 no coast punk

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostZyllos, on 21 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Just an FYI, you might want to reformat your post.


Yeah, when I copy pasted from reddit, the formatting was all ****** up. It's fixed now.

#4 Krzysztof z Bagien

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:33 PM

Very good post, and very good balancing ideas. +1

#5 ego1607

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:52 PM

Me likes.

Also, I think ECM should not grant a total imunity to targeting. If a mech is in plain sight and in someones croshairs I think that someone should be able to get a lock. Perhaps ECM should increase lock-on time considerably but not totally block targeting.

I think that would also make sense considering game mechanic, as it would still allow lights to harass heavier mechs and act as effective scouts, but would not make them totally imune to guided missles.

Edited by ego1607, 21 March 2013 - 05:03 PM.


#6 REDACTED

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

As a battlemech ECM tech (and redditor), I support this. If we can't have the way it works in BT, I want (and prefer) the way it works in real life. +1

#7 Vechs

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:42 PM

I was prepared to dismiss your post when I saw the "real world" part, because every post or topic that's been "X works this way in the real world" typically has no regard for gameplay whatsoever, nor the fact that we're talking about war machines 1000 years in the future.

Anyway!

Your post was actually informative and well thought out in regards to balance. I like your ideas. +1

#8 FrostCollar

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:48 PM

This sounds great! For once a post that references both the real world and battletech that both is informative and offers possible changes for the game.

#9 Das Wudone

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:52 PM

+1 anyway guardian ecm is currently not working as it was supposed to be like in canon. something like messing up with ur lock ons or prolonging ur target locks or something of the other would make more sense than what it currently is.

#10 Tekadept

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:53 PM

Even with my limited knowledge of ECM this is pretty much what i thought should have been implemented. And would applaud it being tweaked to act in this fashion. The problem is it will not be implemented and and you said why with these four words "a more involved process". These four words explain why it will not sit will well their intended target demographic so honestly it will never get done or changed in this fashion.

I appreciate the time you spent on the post though very informative.

Edited by Tekadept, 21 March 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#11 Kageru Ikazuchi

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:20 PM

As a guy whose real-world job is affected by the goods and bads of ECM and ECCM, this is exactly what needed to be articulated to the Dev Team ...

It makes sense from a technology standpoint, keeps ECM useful (but not ridiculously OP), and makes BAP worth something.

I've always thought that, at a minimum, we should be able to get a line of bearing to the buzzer within about 2000m ... this could even be displayed on the minimap and the battle grid.

#12 Irvine

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:23 PM

I like this post!

+1

It would make it where you would have to weigh the pros/cons of carrying ECM

#13 TOGSolid

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:38 PM

10/10 This is a quality thread full of great ideas.

#14 Haitchpeasauce

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:26 PM

I like the idea that ECM is unable to lay waste to an unlimited number of opponents' comms all by itself.

When two or more friendlies are within the bubble, they should be able to overcome the ECM effect and start triangulating and broadcasting telemetry information about the target.

This forces the ECM mech to play far more tactically, while still having quite a strong edge against singular foes.

The OP's post doesn't address missile locks and that's OK ... the more I think about it the more I realise the problem isn't with ECM, the problem is with the missile lock system. It's too "fire and forget".

At the very least, ECM shouldn't nullify guidance, but force the pilot to manually guide the missle, say with TAG.

#15 Suprentus

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:28 PM

I like the whole post. Some of it I agree with, some I don't (for the sake of gameplay)

View Postno coast punk, on 21 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

If two or more friendly mechs are within range to target an ECM equipped hostile, this targeting data SHOULD be relayed to friendlies. The real world reasons behind this are complicated, but it involves triangulation, Doppler shift and frequency hopping.

From a game balance perspective, this would be a huge nerf to your typical ECM raven. That guy who runs into a group of friendlies and lays waste with impunity.


If anything, THIS part should definitely be implemented. I love this idea. I'd have sex with it if I could.

#16 Dignus

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:02 AM

+1
Great ideas!
Actualy, I`m a raven 3L pilot. And it is really sad to see so many ECM equipped mech on any given battlefield. With such overpowered ECM any pilot would prefer to install this system. The uniqueness of electronic countermeasure system is lost nowadays due to that, and that is making me gloom. Moreover, lots of other light mechs are quite unpopular or atleast the ones without ECM capabilities.
Maybe such a new ideas of ECM operation would make thing better

#17 Rawrshuga

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:05 AM

View PostDas Wudone, on 21 March 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

something like messing up with ur lock ons or prolonging ur target locks or something of the other would make more sense than what it currently is.


The Guardian ECM currently also increases the target lock time for missiles already. I noticed this quite clearly when I managed to get an LRM mech with BAP and Advanced Sensors, which allowed me to target ECM mechs at 250m. It took about twice as long to get a lock when I was within that narrow 181-250m sweet spot.

#18 Marchant Consadine

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:21 AM

Brilliant. Also note that this is the only thread about ECM that has ideas everyone so far has agreed. Devs really should get notice of this.

Edit: Also from real life point of view I can't understand how TAG is made useless inside the ECM bubble. Because it works unhindered outside of the bubble it should work also inside. You just shouldn't be able to communicate the target data to others if you're inside the bubble (this would also give non ECM SSRM lights a fighting chance against their ECM counterparts, without completely nullifying the ECM advantage, since it's still hard to keep that TAG on a light going full speed).

Edited by Marchant Consadine, 22 March 2013 - 02:29 AM.


#19 Red Klown X

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:28 AM

How i can report this post as an aware post to the pgi team ?

Nice work !

#20 Tombstoner

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:10 AM

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 21 March 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

As a guy whose real-world job is affected by the goods and bads of ECM and ECCM, this is exactly what needed to be articulated to the Dev Team ...

It makes sense from a technology standpoint, keeps ECM useful (but not ridiculously OP), and makes BAP worth something.

I've always thought that, at a minimum, we should be able to get a line of bearing to the buzzer within about 2000m ... this could even be displayed on the minimap and the battle grid.


I think The game mechanic affect should be longer targeting times as the targeting systems gather more data for anyone in an aoe around the ecm. with BAP countering the affect. i like how you articulated radar being just another form of light cause it is. your sensors can be blinded by the light, but to think that eccm systems are simply non existent is absurd.

If the devs wanted to add a module called muti phasic ecm. then i'd be more inclined to accept ecm with enhanced capabilities as it is implemented. as long as i can upgrade my BAP to counter it.

ECM as it works in real life is also a big i am over hear sign, but you just cant see me very well, cause i have my head lights in your eyes.Then i put on my sun glasses and shoot your *** down.





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