60 replies to this topic

[Kmieciu]

Imagine missiles traveling at only 100 meters/second = 223 mph. They would probably need wings. Realism in MWO is DOA.

[Lord Psycho]

Your ECM is circa 21st century. The Guardian ECM was built circa 26th century almost 27th century. If in 500 years we have ECM that only does as much as yours does.... oh boo.

[no coast punk]

The laws of physics don't really change. RF wave propagation is sort of a universal constant that cares not about what century it is.

Any possible update to ECM/ECCM technology are simple changes on a theme. Faster hop rates. More power. Narrower frequency bands. Shorter burst lengths, etc. It's a cat and mouse game that is constantly evolving, but the rules will always be the same.

The biggest deal with quantum communications (outside of the whole FTL potential) is in security. Quantum comms can't be jammed or intercepted. Unless they are using quantum comms in the future, the laws of physics still apply to their radios as much as they apply to mine.

[Totally stupid nerd mode]

If you want to argue canon, it is very clear that in the battletech universe, people still use conventional radios. Even the HPG network, despite being FTL, is just a conventional radio wave sent through a small hole in space.

In canon, the biggest loss after the star league, was in advanced computer systems. Very powerful computing is what drives electronic warfare. Better computing means that something can be closer to really truly random. Better computing means that you can do more with a shorter transmission. Better computing means you can cycle things faster etc.

We have many things in the current day that are beyond what is available in the battletech universe. Society crumbled remember?

[/Totally stupid nerd mode]

Edited by no coast punk, 22 March 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[HammerSwarm]

no coast punk, on 22 March 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

The laws of physics don't really change. RF wave propagation is sort of a universal constant that cares not about what century it is.

Any possible update to ECM/ECCM technology are simple changes on a theme. Faster hop rates. More power. Narrower frequency bands. Shorter burst lengths, etc. It's a cat and mouse game that is constantly evolving, but the rules will always be the same.

The biggest deal with quantum communications (outside of the whole FTL potential) is in security. Quantum comms can't be jammed or intercepted. Unless they are using quantum comms in the future, the laws of physics still apply to their radios as much as they apply to mine.

[Totally stupid nerd mode]

If you want to argue canon, it is very clear that in the battletech universe, people still use conventional radios. Even the HPG network, despite being FTL, is just a conventional radio wave sent through a small hole in space.

In canon, the biggest loss after the star league, was in advanced computer systems. Very powerful computing is what drives electronic warfare. Better computing means that something can be closer to really truly random. Better computing means that you can do more with a shorter transmission. Better computing means you can cycle things faster etc.

We have many things in the current day that are beyond what is available in the battletech universe. Society crumbled remember?

[/Totally stupid nerd mode]

preach it, totally support your idea.

[SGT Unther]

This **** makes sense, and I'm only going off of high school physics and what they taught in trade school.

+1

[Gman1211]

This is the first thread on ECM I don't regret reading. Tons of good ideas in there as to how to balance ECM.

[Willie Sauerland]

At first,

I was going to

completely ignore this thread.

Now I'm glad I read it.

Excellent post.

+1

[Dorynn]

I approve!

[Tekadept]

Forget all the Naysayers, this is a really good idea and should at the very least be put on the development list for discussion (if something like that even exists).

These real word, its the future arguments dont apply, physics has to be at least the one constant that applies, unless of course this is like shadowrun and we had an awakening and magic was used to generate this ecm.

[Leggin Ho]

Excellent post, I hope the Devs put it in like this a,d BAP is actually useful for something.

[shellashock]

just like other people have said, this is probably the only thread I have seen about ECM that actually is good. Really am hoping hat enough people get on this thread to make the devs consider the great ideas in it. Also, TAG was mentioned as possibly being used to get through ECM jamming. Would NARC be the same, only that targeting info and location coords just takes longer to acquire, or should NARC stay out the of the conversation?

[focuspark]

ECM should be for tanks (the MMO version) and not lights as it draws attention and fire. +1

[collosus]

A solid idea for fixing ECM. +1

[Soeth]

Not only implementing this would solve many current balancing issues with ECM, it would make BAP actually worth taking into the team for detecting enemy covert movements and careless scouts alike.
Bravo sir, your idea has got my total support! +1

[Tansut]

Fantastic thread freind!

shellashock, on 22 March 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Would NARC be the same, only that targeting info and location coords just takes longer to acquire, or should NARC stay out the of the conversation?

NARC works by pinning the target with a big strobe light (in keeping with the thread's running theme of radio ~ light). ECM is supposed to block out the specific strobe pattern by overlaying its own super-bright light making it harder to see the frequency from the NARC. Maybe NARC could be made to interject its own pattern into the ECM but I'm not sure how it works in canon.

Edited by SBDninja, 23 March 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[IrrelevantFish]

In theory, I really like the OP's ideas. I think it's far more interesting than the current system, and I would be delighted to play with it.

However, it is a rather complex system, and might further burden new players. It's possible that electronic warfare is peripheral enough that it might not be any more problematic in PUG matches than the current state of affairs. If it is to complicated, then perhaps EW could be limited to Community Warfare only, where players will be expected to already be comfortable with basic controls and tactics.

Edited by IrrelevantFish, 24 March 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[no coast punk]

shellashock, on 22 March 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

just like other people have said, this is probably the only thread I have seen about ECM that actually is good. Really am hoping hat enough people get on this thread to make the devs consider the great ideas in it. Also, TAG was mentioned as possibly being used to get through ECM jamming. Would NARC be the same, only that targeting info and location coords just takes longer to acquire, or should NARC stay out the of the conversation?

TAG would overcome ECM (assuming the mech with the TAG laser is outside of an ECM bubble). It's pretty tough to completely absorb visible light. There are some later (post 3062) canon armor types that may allow for this.

Now as an interesting (and realistic) counter to TAG:

TAG should be broken if another mech tags a tagging mech. The incoming light from the hostile tag would totally saturate the optics of the receive portion of the rangefinder.

If an ECM mech is tagged, and they hit the tagger with their own TAG laser, it should destroy firing solutions for both mechs. (This will also do interesting things to LRM boat meta).

On NARC:

There is a real world way that a NARC could overcome ECM. This is by transmitting at a very exact power level (and being powerful enough to get above the noise floor of the ECM). http://en.wikipedia....iki/Noise_floor

Like I said earlier, it would be easy to establish a bearing to a target with something like the BAP. The sticky part comes when trying to establish a range. You don't know what power level the hostile ECM is broadcasting at (especially if they are constantly varying power levels). If you have a known power level (such as your NARC beacon) it is a simple calculation to determine range, as the laws of physics dictate that RF signals fall of in strength in a very predictable manner. With a bearing and range, you can establish a firing solution.

Now, I don't know how it would work balance wise to require a BAP + NARC to break ECM, or NARC alone. Either one would be plausible in the real world (if say, the RF detector electronics are part of the NARC launcher). This would involve some playtesting.

Edited by no coast punk, 24 March 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[no coast punk]

IrrelevantFish, on 23 March 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

In theory, I really like the OP's ideas. I think it's far more interesting than the current system, and I would be delighted to play with it.

However, it is a rather complex system, and might further burden new players. It's possible that electronic warfare is peripheral enough that it might not be any more problematic in PUG matches than the current state of affairs. If it is to complicated, then perhaps EW could be limited to Community Warfare only, where players will be expected to already be comfortable with basic controls and tactics.

I think the "burdens for new players" argument went away with Elo. Once new players get the skillset to climb out of low Elo hell, they will have the skills on hand to deal with it.

[Gremlich Johns]

Bravo! I've used ECM IRL too and can support the OP's posting/ideas

[ExAstris]

Two response types: Real World and Gameplay.

Real World. While I've never used ECM myself, I do know some phsyics, and everything here seems spot on. Now, we haven't gone so far as to get into Active Electronically Scanned Array technology, Home-on-Jam, or the relevant bits that constitute an actual stealth suite (as opposed to just blinding the other guy with your flashlight, to use the metaphor), but thats fine, only the basics are needed to get a handle on the situation.

Gameplay. The question thats more important here is this one. Will this change give us better gameplay? I'm actually not sure this is the best solution thats out there, from a gameplay perspective. Granted, anything that gives ECM a role and lowers its overall effectiveness will absolutely be better than the current implimentation.

Thus, given that this version is an improvement over the (lolbad) version we currently have, I say +1. As to whether or not this is the best version to put in the game, I'd have to see exactly how this version handles mechanically speaking, I had trouble drawing up in my mind exactly what would be happening on screen. At what point would mechs get red brackets? When and how would BAP deliver information about ECM targets? How does this implimentation affect ECM's most powerful attribute (the stealth effect)? etc.