60 replies to this topic

[kiltymonroe]

A good thread about ECM? In my MW:O forums?

[Zongoose]

This post thread is full of exactly the sort of feedback that should be taken into the "ECM Meeting" by the developers. It has good points, counter arguments and examples that are helping build a solid game mechanic that also seems plausible.

ExAstris, on 24 March 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

I had trouble drawing up in my mind exactly what would be happening on screen. At what point would mechs get red brackets? When and how would BAP deliver information about ECM targets? How does this implimentation affect ECM's most powerful attribute (the stealth effect)? etc.

I imagine the best way to deal with it would be with a red bracket that jumps around within and arc of your vision and cannot be locked onto. Think of a cone of vision extending from your mech, when the ECM mech gets closer in the bracket jumps smaller distances until you reach the current range brackets that let you lock onto an ECM mech. Further out they might be anywhere within a 45-60 degree angle "cone". This way it fits into the current UI in game and has the impact suggested by the original poster. I think that this would also be quite self explanatory for newer players as it works in the same way as current targeting with obvious visual indicators that "something just isn't quite right over there".

I imagine as an ECM pilot you would definitely activate your ECM at long range to the enemy, no downside to them knowing the rough direction you are coming from. Remember that they only get this vague idea of where you are when running BAP, hence a risk/reward for using BAP as it costs tonnage to simply get the vague direction an ECM mech is in. I would have non ECM mechs within the friendly ECM bubble not appear to BAP as they are not the source of the ECM. They would remain invisible to radar as they do now. The ECM mech in effect sacrifices his own stealth (to BAP) to provide it to the rest of the team.

As you close to medium range or if you try to flank the enemy you go dark and rely on line of sight blocking terrain to try and close the last 400 meters without a BAP mech knowing where you will be. He would either have to disengage from the main force to track you with his whole attention or ignore you. When you get in really close to your target you go hot with ECM again to jam his signal getting out to his friends.

Edited by Zongoose, 24 March 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[MasterBLB]

And here a programmer's and a player's point of view

[Mordynak]

Love the sound of this. Never had a problem with ECM myself, but the idea of it being a bit more involved is great.

[Anjhindul]

ego1607, on 21 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Me likes.

Also, I think ECM should not grant a total imunity to targeting. If a mech is in plain sight and in someones croshairs I think that someone should be able to get a lock. Perhaps ECM should increase lock-on time considerably but not totally block targeting.

I think that would also make sense considering game mechanic, as it would still allow lights to harass heavier mechs and act as effective scouts, but would not make them totally imune to guided missles.

OK.... immune to LRM... at 180m.... ya how many of you believe LRM can do any damage at that range? (SRM requires no lock, Line of Sight missiles) and no other weapon (bar streaks... crappy little things) require a lock. what is the big deal with ecm? it makes it so your LRM missiles cant lock... those just got nerfed to hells hole and are really worthless now... I have not used LRM in so long it isn't even funny. I run both ECM and non ECM mechs and get about the same stats with either.

[HammerSwarm]

Anjhindul, on 26 March 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

OK.... immune to LRM... at 180m.... ya how many of you believe LRM can do any damage at that range? (SRM requires no lock, Line of Sight missiles) and no other weapon (bar streaks... crappy little things) require a lock. what is the big deal with ecm? it makes it so your LRM missiles cant lock... those just got nerfed to hells hole and are really worthless now... I have not used LRM in so long it isn't even funny. I run both ECM and non ECM mechs and get about the same stats with either.

The fact that it is functioning in a wholly broken and unrealistic way doesn't bother you?

Ecm Currently:

• Hides the mech from radar
  
• Hides the number of enemy mechs within its bubble
  
• Prevents locking (this does more than disrupt missiles; it disrupts target information gathering)
  
• Functions as its own ECCM
  
• Jams Radar within a range

Your argument that because LRMS are nerfed it doesn't matter if the mechanics work is both ignorant and silly. The argument in this thread by the OP is that the current functioning of ECM and ECCM are wrong. The OP details why it is this way. Please save your trolling for another thread, this topic is too important.

[Caboose30]

I'm on board with this. I love the BAP detection idea too, since it does say in TT that the BAP unit would know it's being jammed. The bit about two mechs working together to relay targeting information is genius too.

[WinnieTheWhor]

Well written. +1

[no coast punk]

This is how I envision the HUD on a BAP equipped mech working when an ECM equipped mech is within sensor range.

Perhaps, from a game balance perspective, there could be a pilot tree to enhance BAP. Higher levels on the tree allow more than one ECM equipped mech to be tracked at a time. The basic level with have the bar bounce around at random between the two ECM mechs.

It is unobtrusive during combat, and will provide an approximate sense of bearing to a hostile ECM equipped mech without divulging a sense of range.

(Reality mode:

In reality, hostile ECM suites are constantly varying their power output, so that a sense of range can't be established. They will set a ceiling on their maximum power output that is dependent on range to what they are trying to jam. This ensures that they don't radiate more power than what is needed. With frequency shifting, they can skew any bearing calculations, as small changes in frequency can simulate a Doppler shift, which screws up attempts at triangulation.

/reality mode)

No, indicators will be provided if the ECM equipped mech is outside of the currently displayed bearing scale. This will force BAP guys to keep their head on a swivel and pay attention.

Edited by no coast punk, 29 March 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[Rubidiy]

although it was an interesting reading, can't agree with author's point, 'cause his suggestion means further nerf to ECM module.
Guys, just be honest with yourselves. If you're an assault that was destroyed by a raven, your skill is currently low. That's it. It has nothing to do with game balance.
We already have PPC disabling ECM and TAGs. Fortunately LRMs are nerfed now, but, to be honest, they are overnerfed a bit. Someday they will be buffed a bit to be really useful again (not overpowered). And everyone would need a countermeasure to them. Now ECM is more than nerfed. Just use what you already have in the game, and you won't be bothered by presence of ECM mechs.

[Gamgee]

A good thread, please implement now PGI.

[WinnieTheWhor]

if I could bump this thread any harder, I would.

[Spirit of the Wolf]

WinnieTheWhor, on 31 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

if I could bump this thread any harder, I would.

This.

If I could attach a giant flashing strobe light that blasted 'Sandstorm', I'd do it.

Seriously, PGI, testbed this idea.

[Satorii]

As an Old Crow myself I enojyed your description and ideal. However the problems quickly mount as you have... OMG CANON, and the lack of many of the additional real world counters ala anti radation missiles. You know as well as I ECM is an extremely high priority target and there are weapon systems designed specifically to pinpoint (shooting flashlights at night is cake) and destroy jamming capabilities. Can you imagine the screaming if they added another Missile system???

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

@Satorii ... http://www.sarna.net...nate_Ammunition

There are couple of canon options (but they're not available in the current timeline) ... anti-radiation missiles (clan tech, 3057), and ECM pod (ComStar tech, 3062).

[Edward Scissorhands]

from a pro. cant go wrong with real world input

[TehSBGX]

I support this idea. It'll balance things out pretty well.

[Cycleboy]

Forget the screaming! If an ECM is going to crank signal that way, I want a stupid ARM to shoot his way. All it has to do is home in on an ECM once it gets within the 180m bubble. Can still dodge behind terrain to make missile detonate, etc. But when I see those little jerks flying across an open area, and nothing pops on my radar/HUD, launch an intercept volley and wait until they merge paths, then the ARMs swarm in!

EDIT: This would be SPECTACULAR for city fights where the ECM hides behind a couple buildings and jams everyone... just shoot down the alleyway and watch the missiles curve around once they find that ECM signal.

Edited by Cycleboy, 03 April 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Chauneko]

I am quite on board with this idea. This is solid and well thought out.

[Totnacht]

no coast punk, on 21 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

I know this topic has been beat to death, but I got a pretty good response on reddit for this, so I thought I would try it here.

I work with real ECM in the real world. As such, I have some unique perspective on how electronic warfare battles play out in the real world and can give some new perspective to the topic from a game balance perspective.

To understand ECM, you need to understand some fundamentals of how radio works.


Think of radio like light. You communicate by varying the color (FM) or brightness (AM) of your light. Radar is basically bouncing light off things and measuring how it long it takes for your bounced light to get back to you.


ECM basically works by somebody having a brighter light than yours that is doing weird **** like flashing and changing their color so that somebody else looking for your light (or you, looking for the reflection from your own light) has a much harder time seeing it.


To get around this, you might say, make your light only work at a very specific color of blue for a second, then a very specific color of red shortly after. You tell the guy trying to see your light to use a filter for your very specific color of blue, then quickly switch to your color of red.


If you have your own big *** bright jamming light, you can filter it yourself. Say... put a filter that blocks all blue light over your jammer at the exact same instant that you are sending a message in blue on your communicating light.



He will now be able to see your light and only your light, no matter how bright somebody elses light is, unless they land on your specific color. If you change your color fast enough, and synchronize with someone else, it becomes much easier to get your message across.



When it comes to radar, the bright light jammer still works. You can't see your own light you are sending out get bounced back. Why? Because all you see is bright light everywhere.



ECM = the bright light trying to counter your own light. ECCM = things like using filters and color changes.



FWIW, from a real electronics warfare standpoint (and a game balance one), the BAP should show an approximate bearing that an ECM equipped mech is in (say, a bar on your heading indicator that covers a jittery 10 degree sweep).




Why? All of that ECM "light" is super easy to see. The BAP should be able to "see" and triangulate (approximately) that very bright light.

Ever driven in the middle of nowhere on a super dark night? Ever seen headlights over a hill? You can't see the headlights, but you can see their atmospheric scattering. You have no idea where that other car is, but you know it's over there in an approximate direction. This is basically what a system like the BAP would see.

BAP shouldn't impact targeting, as targeting radar needs to be much more precise than simply "there is a bright light somewhere over there". Game balance (and reality) could still be preserved by kicking the targetable range of an ECM equipped mech out a bit (say 50 meters in the mechwarrior world) for a BAP equipped mech.

Anybody within a hostile ECM bubble should have their comms jammed.

However, a twist on this is this: If two or more friendly mechs are within range to target an ECM equipped hostile, this targeting data SHOULD be relayed to friendlies. The real world reasons behind this are complicated, but it involves triangulation, Doppler shift and frequency hopping.

From a game balance perspective, this would be a huge nerf to your typical ECM raven. That guy who runs into a group of friendlies and lays waste with impunity.


From a game balance perspective, it would keep the intent of ECM intact (a lone scout to harass at the fringes of a battle, and gather data).


It would require more involvement on behalf of the ECM pilot too. An "off" mode would have to be added. This would render the mech invisible over the horizon to BAP equipped mechs. When an ECM pilot comes into real detection range of a hostile, they will have to light the system off. This renders them visible to BAP equipped mechs, but invisible to non BAP equipped mechs.




The "counter" mode of the current ECM implementation is actually perfectly valid from an electronics warfare perspective. The hardware is all the same, it's just a question of what it is doing. Mostly it involves the principal "destructive interference"

http://en.wikipedia....ve_propagation)

The counter mode is still not a "win" button. BAP mechs will still be able to see all of that "light". It also makes you vulnerable to being targeted.

This makes electronic warfare a more involved process from the perspective of an ECM pilot. It is not simply a "win" button. It creates a weakness for ECM. Provides a valid and important use for the BAP. Provides an incentive for teamwork (Dedicated electronic warfare guys in a lance). It also seriously nerfs the biggest ***** that people have about the current ECM implementation (that 3L that wades in and annihilates a few assaults single handedly).

This is the best post I have read, for almost half a year.

So beeing an ECM mech with the WRONG handling of ECM can be seriously dangerous for the mech himself, or for those around him, for beeing spotted over long ranges, so it has a big downside, which there definetly should be.

Another interesting aspect would be the return of the scout not beeing able to run undetected into groups of enemies.