358 replies to this topic

[MN03]

MustrumRidcully, on 22 March 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

If you do not boat them, you have other weapons, right? The LRMs and the other weapons will hopefully get the job done, right?

THe question you have to ask yourself: Is an LRM weaker, equally strong, or stronger than a similar weight alternative in ballistic and energy weapons?

On a Hunchback, you might have 3 Medium Lasers and an AC/20. You don't expect a single AC/20 to core another medium or a light in two shots.
So why would a Trebuchets with 3 MLs and 2 LRM15s be able to pull that off?

You can't compare AC/20 with LRM's. AC/20's are not affected by AMS/ECM/Environment/Minimal range. Only by bad aiming.

Edited by MN03, 22 March 2013 - 02:08 AM.

[Red Klown X]

LRM was and are useless ... It work only on pug game , against unorganized people . Thx pgi to fix the game for those dont want to learn how to avoid , hide , get intel , and play in a team .

Edited by klownnection, 22 March 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

MN03, on 22 March 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

You can't compare AC/20 with LRM's. AC/20's are not affected by AMS/ECM/Environment/Minimal range. Only by bad aiming.

Also requires SOME skill to fire.
And since that's a problem with you - dont' use LRMs.
Or try to imagine a game without ECM and without minimum range restrictions for LRMs, who will actually note that there are other weapons in MWO?

[Saint Rigid]

In the interests of keping this short, I'll try to be as succinct as possible.

1: LRMs are weird and need to be fixed

2: The OP is still WRONG

3: Your ascertion that 100 missiles should be enough to kill a Cataphract is flawed

4: You guys can argue about the finer points of what "SUPPORT" means all day if you like, but what it comes down to is that LRMs are not a precision weapon.

5: You are not a sniper, you are a long-range shotgun. Deal with it.

6: Yes, other weapons do have to worry about cover and the environment. Not to mention they have to worry about range.

7: Projectile speed, restructuring missile points, balancing ecm, and recalibrating missile dispersion are all factors that could balancing LRMs (as well as SRMs) that are not just + or - damage.

[Voidcrafter]

Natanael Cormac, on 22 March 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

In the interests of keping this short, I'll try to be as succinct as possible.

1: LRMs are weird and need to be fixed

2: The OP is still WRONG

3: Your ascertion that 100 missiles should be enough to kill a Cataphract is flawed

4: You guys can argue about the finer points of what "SUPPORT" means all day if you like, but what it comes down to is that LRMs are not a precision weapon.

5: You are not a sniper, you are a long-range shotgun. Deal with it.

6: Yes, other weapons do have to worry about cover and the environment. Not to mention they have to worry about range.

7: Projectile speed, restructuring missile points, balancing ecm, and recalibrating missile dispersion are all factors that could balancing LRMs (as well as SRMs) that are not just + or - damage.

Couldn't say it better myself

[MustrumRidcully]

MN03, on 22 March 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

You can't compare AC/20 with LRM's. AC/20's are not affected by AMS/ECM/Environment/Minimal range. Only by bad aiming.

I can absolutely compare it. I just did.

The AC/20 is stopped by any type of cover. You don't the projectile to fly over it. It also has only a normal range of 270m, while the LRM fire at up to 1000m. Of course these weapons are different, the question is: Do you expect the example Trebuchet to perform better or worse than the Hunchback?

What do you want to happen, what do you think would happen now?

[Icemantas]

NOW i finally can dance in the rain brawling blindly.

[Ozric]

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A SUPPORT WEAPON! There are only support ROLES. Some of the newer folks here seem to have this confused.

Anyway, there's little point crying about a temporary fix. LRMs have been up and down so many times since the beta began that 'getting used to them' is monthly task. We had a few weeks of being more-or-less balanced, but able to punish a few chassis more than others, then a couple of days of genuine OP, and now probably a couple more weeks until the next fix, what-ever that may be. As with all dark days of nerf, the best advice I can give is just take it as extreme training and see if you can make anything out of it.

In fairness though I do think it's about time for lasers to be OP again. Has been a while.

[Sifright]

MustrumRidcully, on 22 March 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

I can absolutely compare it. I just did.

The AC/20 is stopped by any type of cover. You don't the projectile to fly over it. It also has only a normal range of 270m, while the LRM fire at up to 1000m. Of course these weapons are different, the question is: Do you expect the example Trebuchet to perform better or worse than the Hunchback?

What do you want to happen, what do you think would happen now?

to be fair though mustrum, if I had 50 tonnes of any other type of weapon I'd expect to be able to instantly kill another mech regardless of their weight class.

50 tonnes of BH weapons before ammo would be what 4 AC/20? (well okay 3 and a bit)

most mechs would be instantly popped by that,

50 Tonnes of lasers would run incredibly hot... but at the same time the peak damage output would be just a little insane

or 50 tonnes of ppcs etc.

[LordDante]

did actually anyone took the time to read the command chait post ??
http://mwomercs.com/...erver-downtime/

they are still looking into that matter so untill they are done why dont u all take ur ravens and anoy the crap out of People

[IIIuminaughty]

MadPanda, on 21 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Above you can see me running a 5x LRM20 Stalker. That's 100 LRM's shot at once. My target is unsuspecting cataprach, a very juicy target for any LRM boat. He is nearly max health (like 95%, little scrathes, all armor near max). I unleash the barrage of 100 LRM's right into his face at optimal range of about 300m. And to raise up the stakes even more, he is actually walking towards me with his massive front chest directed right at my lrm's.

Expectations; this is the biggest mistake of his puny life.

Result: He lost his center torso armor and his CT internals are at yellow. His left/right torso are now at orange armor.

I'll let you decide if LRM's are still worth keeping around.

YOU DID IT WORNG

[Ghogiel]

karish, on 21 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I put 210 lrm into a spider and not a single arm leg was torn away it turn laughed and then ran off my founders Cat is now worthless and going on the shelf

Spiders have always been able to dodge LRMs. I was chasing one all over caustic a few weeks ago and got to see how 5 salvos in a row would miss, maybe 2 missiles out of 20 would actually hit it some where, on other salvos nothing hit.

It's about all spiders are good for lol

[MacDoot]

So wait. Let me see this from your point of view. In your view, an 85 ton mech should be able to one shot a 70 ton mech, simply because he is 300m away and looking at you.

and what is the risk you take on for this ability? oh i guess it's a very skilled build, requiring precision aiming and timing?

OH WAIT. no that's right, you just need to wait for the circle to turn red. ffs, you can do it from behind a rock if you wanted to.

SO, to sum up. the game - in it's balanced state according to you - should allow for any joe to one shot another mech that is 15 tons less than his own, from behind cover. and all you'd have to do is wait for the damn circle to turn red. provided you figured out the secret of how to boat lrms

Let me explain this to you:

Lrms are indirect fire, support weapons (they are SUPPORT, since they CANNOT TARGET INDIVIDUAL COMPONENTS - they SOFTEN UP A TARGET), not a one shot easy kill button that becomes active as soon as another mech makes the mistake of LOOKING AT YOU.

Edited by MacDoot, 22 March 2013 - 04:14 AM.

[Komtur]

hammerreborn, on 21 March 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

So it takes 2 salvoes of 100 LRMs to kill people? Please, someone get me my fainting chair

Have a look to other weapons.
LRM 20, Damage: 14 (new), Cooldown: 4.74 seconds. So with 5 LRM 20 in 5 seconds the damage is 70

AC/2, Damage: 2, Cooldown: 0.5 seconds. So with 6 AC/2 (Jagermech) in 5 seconds the damage is 120

UltraAC/5, Damage: 5, Cooldown: 1.1 seconds. So with 4 UltraAC/5 in 4.4 seconds the damage is 80

Ok, the configurations are not perfect , but will create more damage in the same time.

Edited by Komtur, 22 March 2013 - 04:13 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sifright, on 22 March 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

to be fair though mustrum, if I had 50 tonnes of any other type of weapon I'd expect to be able to instantly kill another mech regardless of their weight class.

50 tonnes of BH weapons before ammo would be what 4 AC/20? (well okay 3 and a bit)

most mechs would be instantly popped by that,

50 Tonnes of lasers would run incredibly hot... but at the same time the peak damage output would be just a little insane

or 50 tonnes of ppcs etc.

But aren't you comparing the wrong extremes? He equipped LRMs, ammo and heat sinks on his mech.
This will shrink down the number of weapons you mention here a lot, if you also bring the reasonable amounts of ammo and sinks into it.
50 tons of PPCs - isn't that basically what we have with those Hex-PPC Stalkers. 42 tons and 8 Double Heat Sinks are about 50 tons. That's still not an instant-pop mech, and it seems to have more heat issues than his LRM mech.
50 tons of AC/20 are pretty much 3 AC/20, no heat sinks,a nd 2 tons of ammo. ANd the same alpha as the 6 PPCs

The key difference between the LRM and the PPCs and AC/20 is that the latter will be "kinda" pin-point damage, while the LRM also spreads a lot of its damage. That is clearly a drawback, because you want to core the enemy mech, not see his hit locations light up in pretty orange tones. But those LRMs have the perk that they can get over some cover, have a good range, and home to their target, meaning you don't need to worry about lead time and the like.

I will have to actually get into the game and play some more to figure out if I think the LRMneeds to be a bit stronger. But I wouldn't consider it as outrageous weak as, say, an MG or Flamer...

[Yankee77]

Homeless Bill, on 21 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

No TAG or Artemis? Sounds about right. They nerfed things a little too hard, but it's closer now than it was. I'm thinking LRMs at 1.0 and SRMs at 1.75, but we'll see

Good point. Tag or artemis would have focused more of that firepower in the CT and no doubt killed your target.

I agree that the nerf was a big too much, as LRMs are now weaker than they were last week, BUT I ran my 2xPPCs/LRM10/LRM15 C1 last night and they still felt pretty powerful to me. I tore apart quite a few mechs with my firepower.

That said, people really need to stop with that silly "it's a support weapon" argument, because what it really means is that "LRMs should suck" or "I shouldn't have to worry about LRMs":

LRMs are _weapons_, that means you should NEVER be able to shrug them off, no more than you'd shrug off lasers or PPCs or ballistics. No, they shouldn't be one shotting stuff in general (unless boated to ludicrous levels, maybe), but people should be afraid of being hit by LRMs just like they would PPCs or lasers or what have you.

But right now I beleive LRMs are still viable. I did great with them yesterday, and saw many mechs get wrecked by LRMs on both sides (including my targets... and my own mech).

[MustrumRidcully]

Komtur, on 22 March 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Have a look to other weapons.
LRM 20, Damage: 14 (new), Cooldown: 4.74 seconds. So with 5 LRM 20 in 5 seconds the damage is 70

AC/2, Damage: 2, Cooldown: 0.5 seconds. So with 6 AC/2 (Jagermech) in 5 seconds the damage is 120

UltraAC/5, Damage: 5, Cooldown: 1.1 seconds. So with 4 UltraAC/5 in 4.4 seconds the damage is 80

Ok, the configurations are not perfect , but will create more damage in the same time.

Why wait one full cooldown cycle before you take your first shot? Especially in the described scenario, the LRM user took the first shot, right?
Fire at 0 seconds!
5 LRM 20 in 5 seconds: 140 damage
6 AC/2 in 5 seconds (11 shots per AC/2); 132 damage
4 Ultra AC/5: 100 damage
3 Gauss Rifles: 90 damage
6 PPCs: 120 damage

Doesn't look so bad to me now, does it?

Then longer the time frame we're looking at, the more the damag eoutput will get closer to the theoretical damage based on the DPS. But in practice, you will probably not fire ever much longer than 15-30 seconds at a target.
But heat becomes pretty important soon, too. I suspect only the Ultra AC/5 and the Gauss User don't worry there.

[StalaggtIKE]

Dran, on 21 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

so they are incredible at supporting your team by stripping sections of armor so your team can mop them up easily?

Thing is, they're not. I think everyone just forgot that he just shot 100 missiles! So if a person brings a reasonable amount of missiles, say 2xLRM15, they'er not going to be doing squat. Simple fact, LRM currently are not worth their weight. All this is doing is encouraging missile boating, because that's the only way to get any results out of them.

[DrBlue62]

Can't one shot a 70ton heavy mech with my autolock easy boat. Gotta click twice and and send 40 more to finish the job. Oh the huge manatee.

MWO is done for sure.

[Hawks]

Assuming it's post yesterday's hotfix, that video (well, GIF) actually suggests to me that LRMs are still pretty damn powerful. Note that the salvo stripped all of the armour on the centre torso - the most heavily armoured part of any mech, remember? - whilst appearing to leave the armour in other places relatively intact. IMHO they should be dispersing a lot more than that, spreading the damage over more of the mech rather than focussing it in one spot. Then, maybe, think about upping the damage per missile.