121 replies to this topic

[qki]

Under-powered, yes, but who says missiles are underpowered?

There is a state between under, and over-powered you know. Missiles were overpowered, now they are not, but they are not underpowered, and certainly worth using.

[PaintedWolf]

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Under-powered, yes, but who says missiles are underpowered?

There is a state between under, and over-powered you know. Missiles were overpowered, now they are not, but they are not underpowered, and certainly worth using.

Yup, just like you can't put 7 large lasers on a Hunchback.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[HarmAssassin]

I have mechs with SRMs and mechs without SRMs, and since the hotfix the efficacy of every mech with SRMs has now dropped significantly. Yes, I realize that this was their goal, but taking a build that did 90 pt alphas and dropping that to 54 pts makes that mech difficult to play.

SRMs should do 2pts damage per missile. They are short range weapons that suffer from spread, must be aimed, and require lots of ammo (and generate heat). They generate less heat than energy weapons, but require extra tonnage for ammo (and when you run out, you can't fire them anymore).

LRMs should do 1pts damage per missile. They are one of the longest ranged weapons in the game, can be fired indirectly (from complete cover), and it is not uncommon for a single mech to have to take LRM fire from 5 enemy mechs at the same time while trying to close the distance (and as long as a single enemy mech has line of sight to you, EVERY enemy mech can fire LRMs at you).

Yet - the developers continue to ignore feedback from the community that repeatedly has asked for this return to canon values on these two weapons.

With the current hotfix, there is no reason to take SRMs unless you have no choice (playing a build with missile slots, and few or not-adequate ballistic/energy slots).

I realize people complain about splatcats, but that's because they don't understand their weaknesses.

Extremely short range (only effective between 35 - 50 meters) - you try getting that close to the enemy without being seen!
Extremely limited supply of ammo.
All weapons located in easily destroyed "ears" the size of small moons.
Susceptible to ammo explosions that will destroy the mech.
Slow and weakly armored unless they save weight by going with an XL engine (see note on ammo explosions destroying mech) which again make them easily destroyed.

And yet - 6 ERPPC builds are encouraged (ERPPC heat was reduced and now there's coolant flushes) - which now do more damage than a splat cat, with one of longest ranges in the game. Insta-kill if it hits anything less than a heavy mech, and can take down any assault mech in 3 volleys (which it can now do without overheating with the coolant flushes).

Dual AC20 builds can now be done with several mechs, that inflict 40 dmg to a single hit location (insta-kill if head shot).

9 medium laser Hunchbacks that do 45 dmg to a single hit location out to good range.

5 large laser Cataphracts that do 50 dmg to a single hit location out to good range.

But now a splatcat can do 54 dmg spread across SEVERAL hit locations, with VERY short effective range, heat concerns, ammo shortages, on a mech that's easily neutralized from long range by pulling its ears off???

With the latest hotfix... my Commando just went from 20 dmg alphas to 14 (Ravens already tore this thing apart, how am I supposed to defend myself now?)

My Atlas dropped from 55 dmg to 45 dmg.

My Stalker's short range defense just dropped from 30 dmg to 18... might as well put a sign on it saying "Spiders please come kick my butt because I can't damage you with lasers, and now my SRMs fire spitballs."

My Centurian dropped from 40 dmg to 27... ?? What the heck am I supposed to do with that?

My support Stalker (LRMs and SRMs) just went from 86 dmg potential to 39 ???????????????????? Might I remind you that it is supposed to be an assault mech?

Why not just take SRMs completely out of the game?... that's pretty much what you've just done.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 23 March 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Apparently SRMs are balanced and we just have to take their word for it. I mean always taking someone at their word- what could go wrong?

[HarmAssassin]

Just played a match... My LRM/SRM Stalker went 1 v 1 against a 40 ton mech armed with a single AC2. I hit each time with 2 SRM6's he hit every time with his single AC2.... I died???? Not an AC20... an AC2! I couldn't do enough damage with 2 SRM6's to bring down a 40 ton mech before they killed my 85 ton, fully (max) armored, mech with an AC2 (he could keep his damage to one hit location, while mine was forced to spread over his entire mech).

That SRM nerf went WAY TOO FAR!

So, this afternoon I'm building a dual AC20 build. I've resisted till now, I really hate them - but if SRMs are going to be nerfed to the point of uselessness, I might as well build a dual AC20 mech and play my laser-weapon 3L Raven until it gets fixed (the only two mechs I currently have that don't require SRMs are my 3L Raven and my Awesome with 3 ERPPCs).

At the moment Lasers and Autocannons are the only viable weapons.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 23 March 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Deathlike]

I think people are used to the insane splash damage that SRMs seriously enjoyed (my splatcat had its fun before the nerfs). It doesn't seem obvious to those poking commandos with SRMs with ease.. because they were the first and foremost easy to kill targets because of the broken system.

That is why it feels like a major nerf... get used to not having an easy button vs light mechs with SRMs.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 March 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[Deathlike]

Cyke, on 22 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

I'm just curious, though.. is there a reason why splash damage is kept in the game for missiles, and needs to be constantly adjusted and re-adjusted alongside missile damage? I'm don't claim to understand the full situation when it comes to game design, but is there a reason why splash isn't simply removed from missiles, and then just balance the missiles' impact damage value alone?
At a glance, it seems that the complexity of the added variable (splash damage) has caused the game design to swing from overpowered missiles to underpowered missiles, and then back again, several times.

It is easier to "tweak" a broken system than just making it implode in one go as a quick fix. Otherwise, you might have a much more broken system that has a lot more... quirks and unintended side effects. It is always easier to "tweak" what is currently broken...

[PaintedWolf]

Deathlike, on 23 March 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

I think people are used to the insane splash damage that SRMs seriously enjoyed (my splatcat had its fun before the nerfs). It doesn't seem obvious to those poking commandos with SRMs with ease.. because they were the first and foremost easy to kill targets because of the broken system.

That is why it feels like a major nerf... get used to not having an easy button vs light mechs with SRMs.

I thought the problem was just with a bug? If the problem is a bug, why does the weapon's stat have to be nerfed? If PPCs are bugged, do they reduce PPC damage from 10 to 5?

I can imagine that. Reducing PPC damage from 10 to 5 to show that PPC boating doesn't work. You see any weapon people boat with has to be nerfed because boating does not work. SRMs were being boated, and even though they are less powerful in MWO then in TT they had to be nerfed, because SRM boating does not work. (It did work, but now that it is Under-Powered, it does not work. =p )

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Deathlike]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

I thought the problem was just with a bug? If the problem is a bug, why does the weapon's stat have to be nerfed? If PPCs are bugged, do they reduce PPC damage from 10 to 5?

The problem is that they addressed fixing legitimate bugs relating to splash (not hurting or dealing much to the legs), however uncovering that problem has caused the very apparently realization that their current splash code really hurts. LRMWarrior v2 happened for 2 days.

Quote

I can imagine that. Reducing PPC damage from 10 to 5 to show that PPC boating doesn't work. You see any weapon people boat with has to be nerfed because boating does not work. SRMs were being boated, and even though they are less powerful in MWO then in TT they had to be nerfed, because SRM boating does not work. (It did work, but now that it is Under-Powered, it does not work. =p )

SRM boating does not work anymore.. but it used to be pretty damn goodunder the broken system (Splatcat is the notorious one, the extreme case).

Missiles were always supposed to be an additional method to add in damage while your direct fire weapons were cooling down (in some cases, your primary-ish weapon). What most people suffering now are the effects of what they aren't used to... splash was insanely effective against light mechs (well, specifically SRMs vs lights) even before LRMs become obviously overpowered...

I get the strong feeling that the testing never had numbers put to them in order to see if it was "working as intended" and having actual testing (by the players), these issues come to light as day. For most SRM users, it's a genuine nerf, but it's primarily because we're used to the "broken" system for a long while to have noticed this.

[PaintedWolf]

So when losing to specialists instead of re-evaluating strategy we have to change the rules of the game. So Team A beats team B, instead of awarding the medal where it is supposed to go, we make it so goals are now worth negative points.

[qki]

PaintedWolf - you really need to stop spewing out nonsense.

The "bug" was a design flaw. As PGI admitted - twice now.
Missiles had splash damage, and by design that caused every missile to apply it's damage to several locations, instead of just one - because the hitboxes for new 'mechs were more complex than the 8 'mechs we had when slash was first implemented.

So they removed splash damage, and it turned out that missiles were now a CT sniping weapon, which is against the lore, and design parameters. So splash was left in, albeit with a smaller radius, and damage was reduced to compensate.

And for the 20th time - not doing 600 damage every round with 2xSSRM2 does not make it underpowered. SRMs and LRMs were seriously OVERpowered, and with the hotfix they are close to where they SHOULD be.

And it's not a question of boating - remember the 9 SL fastbacks? or 6SL Jennys? 6 PPC stalkers tend to disagree with your "boating other weapons doesn't work" statement.

And boating SRMs does work - I run a raven with just 2ML and 1 AIVSRM6, and get kills with it, upwards of 200 damage per match too - not the retarder 500+ damage like before, but it works.

Unless you are one of those no-skill players whose deffinition of "works" is "press button to destroy enemy mech".

[PaintedWolf]

The claim was that due to splash SRMs and LRMs were doing up to 7 times their damage. However, there is, for some mysterious reason, no screen shot showing matches where missile boats are doing 3,4,5k damage as would be expected if Splatcats were really doing the damage equivalent of 14 Gauss Rifles. And keep in mind, they don't even have TACs yet like they do in TT. Just admit the specialization works.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[qki]

5k is on the high side. 20 hits (2 tons of ammo) is 300 damage, and that's implying perfect accuracy.

I have seen a 2.5k damage screenshot (as I said - it was on /vg/ and I can't find it anymore). I have personally blown off half a Jenner with one SRM6 (no A4) shot, and killad another Jenny with a similar SRM6 shot to the side, from yellow armour to dead in one shot.

That's just overpowered, and had nothing to do with boating. And you can still make a super-specialised build, and trust me - it will still work. Just don't expect to be doing the same kind of damage - it is gone forever - no more 700+ damage from shooting 3 SSRM2s all match (though I have seen a 660 damage spider D, but that's another story).

[PaintedWolf]

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

5k is on the high side. 20 hits (2 tons of ammo) is 300 damage, and that's implying perfect accuracy.

So where is the screen shot?

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I have seen a 2.5k damage screenshot (as I said - it was on /vg/ and I can't find it anymore).

Well how convenient.

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

I have personally blown off half a Jenner with one SRM6 (no A4) shot, and killad another Jenny with a similar SRM6 shot to the side, from yellow armour to dead in one shot.

Armor values and also Jenners generally don't have that much armor to begin with.....

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

That's just overpowered, and had nothing to do with boating. And you can still make a super-specialised build, and trust me - it will still work. Just don't expect to be doing the same kind of damage - it is gone forever - no more 700+ damage from shooting 3 SSRM2s all match (though I have seen a 660 damage spider D, but that's another story).

Gone forever? I thought this was temporary? How these claims change....

[qki]

Are you really this thick.

Yes, temporary as in "we're tuning the damage down, but we'll restore it to their ******** OP values again, so you can once more kill enemy mechs with one press of a button guided missile salvo"


Really? Temporary in this case means that it's not final.

Also - the statement was: "we are temporarily removing splash damage until we can find a way to implement it without breaking the game". After which it turned out, that simply removing splash breaks the game, hence the reduction to splash and damage solution.

And make an effort for once and look for it yourself - the nature of 4chan means stuff that got posted yesterday is gone today, and I really didn't feel like saving a shot of some dork doing 2500 damage with LRMs - I got a shot of my raven 3L doing 700 damage with 3 medium lasers and a pair of streak 2s - more than my 600 damage Atlas in a 5-kill match.

[PaintedWolf]

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Are you really this thick.

Yes, temporary as in "we're tuning the damage down, but we'll restore it to their ******** OP values again, so you can once more kill enemy mechs with one press of a button guided missile salvo"


Really? Temporary in this case means that it's not final.

Also - the statement was: "we are temporarily removing splash damage until we can find a way to implement it without breaking the game". After which it turned out, that simply removing splash breaks the game, hence the reduction to splash and damage solution.

And make an effort for once and look for it yourself - the nature of 4chan means stuff that got posted yesterday is gone today, and I really didn't feel like saving a shot of some dork doing 2500 damage with LRMs - I got a shot of my raven 3L doing 700 damage with 3 medium lasers and a pair of streak 2s - more than my 600 damage Atlas in a 5-kill match.

Chillax.

[qki]

as for damage - My stat page is messed up after the hotfix, but I did use the SRM4 (can't remember for what) before the hotfix - 34 missiles hit, 149 damage done - close to 5 per missile - way more than the intended 2.5

[PaintedWolf]

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

as for damage - My stat page is messed up after the hotfix, but I did use the SRM4 (can't remember for what) before the hotfix - 34 missiles hit, 149 damage done - close to 5 per missile - way more than the intended 2.5

Screen shots of 3-5k being done a match or it isn't happening. Thx.

[qki]

oh FFS - not 3, and not 5k damage, but 2500 damage I've seen. And there are a couple (more than a couple) screens of 1500 damage being done here on the MWO forums - look for them.

[PaintedWolf]

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

oh FFS - not 3, and not 5k damage, but 2500 damage I've seen. And there are a couple (more than a couple) screens of 1500 damage being done here on the MWO forums - look for them.

So the missiles do 2,3,4,5,6,7(!!!!) times their damage, but for some strange, divine, mystical reason we can't find any screen shots of these ridiculously high points of damage being done in all the matches presented on video and screen shots. Don't worry everyone, the evidence is lying around....somewhere...I swear I've seen it! You know it's true then right guys? Right?? Geez, I wish I could prove things enough for people to spend resources on my ideas with evidence I swear I saw but can't reproduce and for some reason there are no signs of at all in any games.

I mean just because SRM-6s are doing 105 damage doesn't mean we should be seeing any signs of it. 15 x 7 = 105 damage being done wouldn't even be noticed. Let alone a Splatcat doing 600+ damage in a single strike.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 10:40 AM.