1107 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Thirdstar, on 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

And that's what they should try to do. Make SHS useful.

They did that already. They Made double sinks... not double! Sometimes upgrades are just the end of the old. *Shrug*

[Wolfyop]

Sears, on 23 March 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

This could also effect the engine when upgrading to doubles that it can be destroyed easier than an engine filled with singles.

why nerf DHS?

[Khanublikhan]

You can fit single heat sinks into a mech's legs. Should the developers ever decide to properly impliment rules for heat sink immersion in water, they might be preferred over doubles. What with standing in bodies of water being a BT tactic.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khanublikhan, on 23 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

You can fit single heat sinks into a mech's legs. Should the developers ever decide to properly impliment rules for heat sink immersion in water, they might be preferred over doubles. What with standing in bodies of water being a BT tactic.

That is long implemented. But this benefit is extremely marginal, because we have yet to get the "Ocean Colony Winter" map. And if I am not mistaken, standing in the water was also dangerous, because you could suffer hull breaches and lose your leg with an unlucky hit. (That part is definitely not implemented. And when I lose a leg due to a "random" crit, it's probably because of an ammo explosion.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 23 March 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Circles End]

You'd better just keep your grabby mitts off my single heatsinks! Without them my Atlas runs out of crit space faster than a Raven with LRM lock.

In assaults shs have a significant role as ammo and weapons take up a lot of crit space and can thus often be a very serious competitor to dhs.

[Krubarax]

I have many mechs and variants that works very well with standard heatsinks.
It depends on you, your playstyle, your weapon loadout and the enviroment.

I do not agree at all that DHS are mandatory.

I usually only install them in my "primary" variants.

[KingNobody]

Circles End, on 23 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

You'd better just keep your grabby mitts off my single heatsinks! Without them my Atlas runs out of crit space faster than a Raven with LRM lock.

In assaults shs have a significant role as ammo and weapons take up a lot of crit space and can thus often be a very serious competitor to dhs.

SHS are essential to the game. Also, if every 'mech were to come fully upgraded like the X-5, we'd lose some of the sense of progression that upgrading and tweaking your 'mech provides.

[Thirdstar]

GB Krubarax, on 23 March 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

I have many mechs and variants that works very well with standard heatsinks.
It depends on you, your playstyle, your weapon loadout and the enviroment.

I do not agree at all that DHS are mandatory.

I usually only install them in my "primary" variants.

No, no it doesn't depend outside of some very outlier examples. *sigh*

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

Go on, see for yourself. Put in your current build then upgrade to DHS. Tell us the results.

[qki]

Also - this cannot be stressed enough - you can put SHS in the legs, and as long as you are standing in water, their efficiency doubles (that's been implemented a while back) - such a thing is not possible with DHS.


And tuning DHS down is not an attempt at balancing SHS (or not making them useless) or selling cool shots - but an attempt to keep heat relevant - even with their 1.4 dissipation, simply upgrading to DHS has all but elliminated any heat problems my YLW had.

And upgrade is the key to this riddle. It's worth keeping SHS in the game if only so people can say "I upgraded my mech to DHS and now it's better".

[Thirdstar]

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Also - this cannot be stressed enough - you can put SHS in the legs, and as long as you are standing in water, their efficiency doubles (that's been implemented a while back) - such a thing is not possible with DHS.

4 SHS working as DHS ONLY when in water is hardly a good reason to pick SHS over DHS.

Not possible in Alpine, both Frozen Cities and Caustic (And the new map).

Edited by Thirdstar, 23 March 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Krubarax]

I said they work well. not that you will become UBERGODOFWARPWNEVERYTHING with standard heatsinks.
I said that I do not think they are mandatory.
I do not have to check anything, I went to school and I can do maths. And obviously they are *better* at dissipating heat. That is what they are made for, and that is why they cost extra c-bills. I am just saying that if you learn how to build a balanced mech you do not ABSOLUTLY NEED DHS's

If you disagree, it is a testament to your lack of skill

[qki]

With the MWO implementation, a submerged SHS is more effective than the 1.4HS (aka DHS). Essentially that's 4 free HS.

So having an atlas with 23 HS, and 4 of them in the legs, is like having 27 HS, taking up an additional 11 slots, vs 19 DHS (saving 4 tons, and taking 21 extra slots) that will provide equal dissipation.

[Protection]

Circles End, on 23 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

You'd better just keep your grabby mitts off my single heatsinks! Without them my Atlas runs out of crit space faster than a Raven with LRM lock.

In assaults shs have a significant role as ammo and weapons take up a lot of crit space and can thus often be a very serious competitor to dhs.

Please share your Atlas build: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

And upgrade is the key to this riddle. It's worth keeping SHS in the game if only so people can say "I upgraded my mech to DHS and now it's better".

That's a terrible gameplay element for a PvP focused online game. If you are going to keep SHS in the game, they need to have a real purpose.

[Thirdstar]

GB Krubarax, on 23 March 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

I am just saying that if you learn how to build a balanced mech you do not ABSOLUTLY NEED DHS's

If you disagree, it is a testament to your lack of skill

Not sure where skill enters the equation. Most builds you can envision will be more heat efficient with DHS.

I'm not attacking you, thought you seem to be reacting as if I have. I'm pointing out simple facts.

[AndyHill]

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

With the MWO implementation, a submerged SHS is more effective than the 1.4HS (aka DHS). Essentially that's 4 free HS.

So having an atlas with 23 HS, and 4 of them in the legs, is like having 27 HS, taking up an additional 11 slots, vs 19 DHS (saving 4 tons, and taking 21 extra slots) that will provide equal dissipation.

Correct me if I'm mistaken in what you mean, but 27SHS (with the +4 in water) provides 27 points of cooling, whereas 19DHS provide constantly 10 x 2 + 9 x 1.4 = 32,6 dissipation, which is somewhat more than the singles even in water.

[Krubarax]

I took no offence.
it just seems like you completly miss my point.

I am basically trying to tell you, that if you do not build a six PPC Stalker and expect to insta-pwn your target - but instead try to build a balanced mech, and manage your heat - you CAN make a config work WITHOUT Double Heat sinks.
I have Standard on two out of three of my Centurions. Standards on ALL my Hunchbacks.

Of course, most, if not all my configs would benefit from DHS upgrade. but I am telling you it is not MANDATORY.
It is a cost and you have to decide if it is worth it.

And as a side note. I actually made an Awesome once, which I upgraded to DHS and it actually halved its heat efficiency.
Due to not enough crit slots.

edit: skill enters the equation in two ways. First is skill in building your mech and grouping your weapons. (strategic) second is how you use cover to cool down behind and how to twist and turn your mech to spread out damage, while you cool down. (tactical)

Edited by GB Krubarax, 23 March 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[qki]

and noone is disputing the fact. Most builds.

Some will be flat out impossible with DHS - the com-2d comes to mind, with a 210 XL engine, you need 2 external heatsinks, and if you take both Endo-steel and FF, you have 5 slots left, forcing you to choose between extra dissipation you don't need, and extra armour.

[Walter Soebchak]

Or we could go play a different game?

Why not eliminate the ac/5? Why don't we eliminate regular engines? Why don't we eliminate regular armor? Why don't we just give everyone everything that they want?

I mean, I think I should get everything I want and only what I want. This game should instantly give me the upgrades I want, and not make me work or pay for anything.

That is what I have come to expect.

Also, I want a game that has nothing to do with the material of the original IP and the 30 years or so of game history. Unless of course those parts of the IP fit exactly what I think the game should be.

[Khanublikhan]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 March 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

That is long implemented. But this benefit is extremely marginal, because we have yet to get the "Ocean Colony Winter" map. And if I am not mistaken, standing in the water was also dangerous, because you could suffer hull breaches and lose your leg with an unlucky hit. (That part is definitely not implemented. And when I lose a leg due to a "random" crit, it's probably because of an ammo explosion.)

Thank you for your reply. I had an idea it was implimented but had marginal benefit. Which is an important point: I would argue there needs to be a greater and more obvious difference to enviroment cooling opportunities (standing in water / under a waterfall) to clearly show the playerbase that single heat sinks are a viable alternative - if you choose the place on a battlefield on which to make your stand.

The cooling (water) and heating (lava font) environmental effect needs to be larger and more obvious. This needs to be incorporated into map design!

[Wildstreak]

Advantages of Single Heat Sinks:

- Take up les crit space. There are times building a Mech where if you use DHS, you may find tonnage left over after near filling the crit spaces, something you would not have with SHS.
- SHS can go into Legs, Center Torso and Head, DHS cannot.
- There was and in MWO may be a rule where if you are knee to waist deep in water, any SHS in the legs count as double strength. Right now that could happen on areas of Forest Colony and River City.

The only way to mix SHS and DHS was to use the experimental Davion DSHS or CCEDHS but these burnt out after a certain period of use. So if you want those, PGI could make Consumable versions that would fit since paying MC for these would keep them rare as they were and they would wear out forcing you to buy more when you use a Mech that needs them.

Amazing that SHS are getting some people worked up.