1107 replies to this topic

[Commander Kobold]

Merchant, on 23 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Advantages of Single Heat Sinks:

- Take up les crit space. There are times building a Mech where if you use DHS, you may find tonnage left over after near filling the crit spaces, something you would not have with SHS.
- SHS can go into Legs, Center Torso and Head, DHS cannot.
- There was and in MWO may be a rule where if you are knee to waist deep in water, any SHS in the legs count as double strength. Right now that could happen on areas of Forest Colony and River City.

The only way to mix SHS and DHS was to use the experimental Davion DSHS or CCEDHS but these burnt out after a certain period of use. So if you want those, PGI could make Consumable versions that would fit since paying MC for these would keep them rare as they were and they would wear out forcing you to buy more when you use a Mech that needs them.

Amazing that SHS are getting some people worked up.

it's more that in most cases there isn't a reason not to use doubles

[AndyHill]

Merchant, on 23 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Advantages of Single Heat Sinks:

The thing is, none of these advantages are enough to make singles a good option except in some very rare cases, of which precious few are good builds.

[Mackman]

Guys... you're not going to win any arguments. Every single argument against DHS boils down to, "My mech works "good enough" with SHS," Which, depending on how low their standards are, might be true. However, this argument ultimately boils down to "Let me build crappy mech builds if I want to."

And that's fine. I wish you SHS users all the best. Just know that your builds are objectively worse than what you could get with DHS, and also know that you can't come up with an argument for SHS that involves effectiveness: Only "progression," or the choice to be purposely bad at the game if you want to.

[Joseph Mallan]

Leave the single sinks for those who like them. Having a choice does not damage the game. As many of the Mech being pulled from Canon have single sinks at this time it is what it is.

Honestly I think sinks could/should work faster than they do now. Fire once and vent is what was the metric on TT. Now we have 3:1 fire ratios and it is totally messing the effectiveness of the original designs. Sure they were meant to run warm to hot, but this is quite ridiculous!

[Krubarax]

Mackman, on 23 March 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Guys... you're not going to win any arguments. Every single argument against DHS boils down to, "My mech works "good enough" with SHS," Which, depending on how low their standards are, might be true. However, this argument ultimately boils down to "Let me build crappy mech builds if I want to."

And that's fine. I wish you SHS users all the best. Just know that your builds are objectively worse than what you could get with DHS, and also know that you can't come up with an argument for SHS that involves effectiveness: Only "progression," or the choice to be purposely bad at the game if you want to.

Again you fail to see the point.
The point is that DHS is NOT MANDATORY!

We know DHS are more efficient at dissipating heat, for the same weight!
We are saying that SHS have an actual use and that you CAN build configs without them and that the suggestion to remove them from the game is stupid!

Did you believe someone was trying to argue that SHS are better?
Did you even read the posts or did you lose your contacts or something?

[Wildstreak]

Then why all the stink about removing SHS?
Really, it is not like they are breaking the game similar to other things.
No rational sense for this topic.

[AnubiteGroove]

I practically don't use DH. Only now have I started to, and only on half my mechs. It's not needed, I don't know where this is coming from. Also, my k:d has remained above 2 after ELO, LRMs, and CF, so I think I have a little say in this matter.

Reiterating. DH not really needed. Good sometimes, waste others.

[wanderer]

Chris Morris, on 22 March 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Was there a purpose for them in tabletop Battletech?

In TT, DHS were put into the game specifically by FASA to speed things up with the 3050-era version of the game. SHS are only generally used when unavailable or in vehicles, which can't use them to begin with- that is, after the point in the timeline where DHS become widely available.

By the 3060's, the "average" new 'Mech design was de facto DHS-equipped, and a lack of same was considered a flaw or due to economic reasons (lack of available parts).

The proper solution is to put the nice Trial 'Mechs in their own sandbox and stop leaving them to get obliterated by modernized designs. It's like expecting WWII tanks to perform on a Gulf War-era battlefield as effective units.

[Mackman]

GB Krubarax, on 23 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Again you fail to see the point.
The point is that DHS is NOT MANDATORY!

We know DHS are more efficient at dissipating heat, for the same weight!
We are saying that SHS have an actual use and that you CAN build configs without them and that the suggestion to remove them from the game is stupid!

Did you believe someone was trying to argue that SHS are better?
Did you even read the posts or did you lose your contacts or something?

Can you build configs without them? Of course. Will those configs ever be as good as configs utilizing doubles? Of course not. Does that mean that your mech with single heat sinks is an objectively worse mech? Of course.

You have low standards, and you want to be free to build a bad mech. That's fine. Don't try and make your argument anything other than that, though.

[AndyHill]

For the record, I don't suggest removing SHS. I think their role currently isn't very well implemented, however, there's little point in their existence when heat is so massively important in this game and there are no real factors limiting DHS use.

[MuKen]

Merchant, on 23 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Then why all the stink about removing SHS?
Really, it is not like they are breaking the game similar to other things.
No rational sense for this topic.

Firstly, what's "all this stink"? Most people, the OP included, alternatively advocate buffing them to be comparable to DHS.

Secondly, you read the title, didn't read the arguments for it that have been made, then ask what all the arguments for it are. Nice.

To summarize:

- It makes an even higher barrier for new players, if their mech is automatically substandard until they fork over the 1.5mil
- None of the other 'upgrades' are clearly better than standard (endo, ferro, xl, artemis)
- It encourages people to build inferior builds to save money when levelling mechs they don't want to keep, which hurts their team. PGI has already shown that they don't want money to encourage gimping your team when they took out RnR due to people hurting their teams by not RnRing to save money.

Edited by MuKen, 23 March 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khanublikhan, on 23 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Thank you for your reply. I had an idea it was implimented but had marginal benefit. Which is an important point: I would argue there needs to be a greater and more obvious difference to enviroment cooling opportunities (standing in water / under a waterfall) to clearly show the playerbase that single heat sinks are a viable alternative - if you choose the place on a battlefield on which to make your stand.

The cooling (water) and heating (lava font) environmental effect needs to be larger and more obvious. This needs to be incorporated into map design!

The marginality is not because the bonus is weak, but the bonus is too circumstantial. Most maps don't provide ample water. Even if the cooling benefit was a factor of 4, it woulnd't be sufficient, unless we get that aforementioned Ocean Colony map and you can stay in water all the time.

You know what you can do with DHS - put ammo in the legs. People get rarely legged, and even if you do, the ammo explosion will first have to destroy the leg and only then transfers to a side torso, and only if then still something is remaining, transfers to the CT. So you probably don't even need CASE to protect your CT, and it's not unlikely you won't lose anything else important (except your leg, which certainly sucks, but that would happen without the ammo as well.)

The only time you are screwed with DHS in MW:O is when your mech can not equip ammo-based weapons. The HBK 4P and the AWS-8Q are screwed like this, pretty much no other mech is. But that isn't just because you now have to 4 crit slots you cannot use - it's also because adding some lower-heat missiles or ballistics is a good idea on every mech - it doesn't require quite as many heat sinks and you can devote more space and tonnage for weaponry.

And I am sorry to say that - but anyone that believes his build is both high-performing and can stick with Standard Heat Sinks is probably wrong. Even the Gauss Cat can benefit from DHS - simply add 2 Medium Lasers somewhere and you got an instant DPS boost at close range. If you're in one of those Atlas Builds that runs with 36+ Standard Heat Sinks and a small assortment of energy weapons - yes, that build can only get its heat efficiency with SHS, but there are builds that use DHS and other weapons that will likely utilize the weight better, giving you more bang for your buck.

[Grokdragon]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Please, do share one of these builds...

Well, i use a Jager mech with 4 ac 5's and i don't need additional heat sinks (outside of the starting 10) on tourmaline desert so why would I upgrade?

[MustrumRidcully]

Grokdragon, on 23 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Well, i use a Jager mech with 4 ac 5's and i don't need additional heat sinks (outside of the starting 10) on tourmaline desert so why would I upgrade?

Fun fact: Each UAC generates 0.91 heat per second on average, 4 increases this to 3.64. That means a 4 UAC Mech with 10 single heat sinks overheats in 15 seconds. With DHS, it would overheat in 30 seconds.
Maybe in practice you never produce enough heat or never fight uninterrupted long enough for 15 seconds, so it might not be important. But you can still get a (marginal) benefit with DHS..So you are still never at disadvantage with DHS here, and might even have the occasional situation where they give you a benefit.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 23 March 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[hashinshin]

Mercules, on 22 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Oh, the other point to them was that they cost a lot less to repair... but then PGI dumbed down the game....

Here was repair and rearm in your mind:

I HAVE ENOUGH AMMO BUT MY MECH IS HURT, I NEED TO REPAIR MY MECH!

Here was repair and rearm in reality:

Get auto arm to 80% to save cost, turn repair mech on automatic. Never interact with the system beyond "your mech doesn't have full ammo, are you sure you want to queue?!"

[Blackfire1]

I seriously wish they would have kept the engines with 10 heat sinks across the board. Even if its a matter of uppin the weight. I'm tired of getting an awesome build and being told "You need 10 heat sinks"

[Terror Teddy]

Thirdstar, on 23 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

That's.....that's an abomination!

Well - It can quite efficiently have continous chainfire on those ERPPC's and a pair of defensive lasers up close. We CAN drop a few SHS for a pair of SSRM2's. And if we are feeling adventuros we add a pair of machineguns for that OP crit ability...that they nerfed...

Quote

Why would you possibly use that as an example?

Merely to prove a point. No-one asked for a combat viable non-one-trick-pony. And because I felt evil.

Quote

Have at it. Please don't post something similar to what Terror Teddy did. It'll give me seizures.

Hehehehe...

Come on, cant be WORSE than those obnoxiously boring turret stalkers with X6 ERPPC's...

Blackfire1, on 23 March 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

I seriously wish they would have kept the engines with 10 heat sinks across the board. Even if its a matter of uppin the weight. I'm tired of getting an awesome build and being told "You need 10 heat sinks"

Yes, especially since they literally makes the Urbanmech impossible due to it cannot have the engine it needs without adding about seven tonnes of extra heatsinks.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think it would be better to make all engine heat sinks run at 2.0 / 0.2. That would instantly make all trial mechs better and would make SHS and DHS a lot more equal.

[MustrumRidcully]

Quick, vote here: http://mwomercs.com/...ine-heat-sinks/

[Butane9000]