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Calm Down, Mechwarror Is Not A Simulator (Thankfully)


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#81 Mordhar

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:00 AM

View PostNonsense, on 24 March 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:


I'm going to quote the entire thing because It's fun to repeat your giant blocks of text. Just because you typed a decently written (but incorrect) wall of text doesn't mean you're entitled to call everyone else's short comments about 3rd person "herp derp". Your post contains more herpderp than all of that combined.

The point of not wanting 3rd person has NOTHING WHATSOEVER with wanting MWO to be a "simulator"...it's about the fact that 3rd person breaks the game in that 3rd person implemented in the wrong way makes 3PV vastly superior to FPV for gameplay. Meaning, why bother designing all these unique cockpits? Why bother with the startup sequence? It's the same as the heat vision modes...why bother making all these pretty mechs if you're going to make a chiefly blue colored view the best way to spot enemies? It shows the developers are possibly confused about what kind of game they're making.

But really, the fact that you think MWO is an MMO shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. There's nothing "massive" about MWO's multiplayer.

But, just as you can bend the definition for MMO, MWO can bend the definition of simulator. /thread


Agreed.
IF you have 3rd person view, than you ALWAYS use it. There is no reason to use more restricted cockpit view if you have alternative.
So 3rd person camera WILL kill fun for everyone who want to play game from cockpit.

#82 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:02 AM

I think the OP has listened to too much FZ.

Wait, is that even possible?

#83 FupDup

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostCpt Beefheart, on 22 March 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

In amongst this whole "derp derp derp, I don't want 3rd person herp derp" thing has come the disposition that the MWO is a simulator (I don't want to use 3rd person either, but I'll get to that later). Please kids, calm down, the Mechwarrior series are not simulators in the pure sense of the word, and I for one am thankful they are not.

I think that some people forgot to read this part of the OP. Cpt Beefheart doesn't want 3PV either.

Edited by FupDup, 24 March 2013 - 07:27 AM.


#84 Denno

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:35 AM

We'll just have to see. Upon non-knee-jerk reflection I would be astonished if most of the Devs actually want 3rdpv considering what they have stated in the past about it. Assuming that, it leaves the question of why now? This stinks of marketing and 3rd party bean counters, not developers.

Quote

IF you have 3rd person view, than you ALWAYS use it. There is no reason to use more restricted cockpit view if you have alternative.
So 3rd person camera WILL kill fun for everyone who want to play game from cockpit.


Only if they make it OP. If it turns out that competitive gameplay/FW types use only 1stpv then it should be all good. Hopefully 3rdpv ends up being training wheels/scrub court. My only concern is this might fragment the population, particularly with the proposed regional server deal.

#85 Grayseven

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostForestal, on 24 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Err, I'm sure they simulated the Mars Rover landing thousands of times before it ever happened... and there are actually simulations of the Earth-centric as well Sun-centric models of the universe (it's also HOW we know that they aren't real, cos they keep contradicting other observed phenomenon).

But go on, let me see how many thousand other ways you guys with "sim-phobia" can play with the same words/concepts, and get them wrong-- just so you don't have to face your fears... :)

All of which is real. Every thing you stated is a real thing. Reality is easy to simulate. There are no Battlemechs and I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will never be Battlemechs so simulating one is problematic. Especially for a game.

Sure, you could make it a full blown simulation like Microsoft Flight Simulator, or F16 or one of dozens of simulators that allow you to simulate the massive complexity of a system.

MWO doesn't need that complexity. We don't have to monitor fusion containment or coolant flow pressure, we don't have to change transponders to squawk on a certain frequency, we don't have to do the thousand little things a complex simulator would require...

That doesn't make MWO NOT a simulator. Simplistic? Sure, but then again how fun would it be if have the battle you are cutting damaged hit sinks out of the loop by electronically closing valves, manually trying to clear UAC5 jams and the like?

You can say this is a sim, or it isn't a sim, but ultimately what 3rd person will do is take what simulation exists and turn it into something else. For me, nothing but 1st person will do no matter how much advantage 3rd person gives.

#86 KingCobra

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:17 AM

View PostSir Roland MXIII, on 22 March 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

I always thought of MW as a quasi-simulator, not a true sim'. As someone who enjoys both sim' games and otherwise I can see elements of both here. I agree that 100% simulation involves a great deal of tedium, however not all of the ingredients of simulation are boring, and I would love to have more sim' elements than we have now.


+10 I have stated that I personally thought MWO was going to be a new MechWarrior5 based off of MechWarrior4 PC games with more in-depth game play styles and tactics or based off of the old PC game BT3025 which was based off of the Battle Tech Universe I In no way imagined a MechWarrior game Based off of World of Tanks with little true content grind intensive and no true affiliation to the BT-TT-MechWarrior-Novels-IP? Posted Image

#87 Lolpingu

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:26 AM

View PostSir Roland MXIII, on 22 March 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

I always thought of MW as a quasi-simulator, not a true sim'. As someone who enjoys both sim' games and otherwise I can see elements of both here. I agree that 100% simulation involves a great deal of tedium, however not all of the ingredients of simulation are boring, and I would love to have more sim' elements than we have now.


Aye. There are some elements of simulation that make gameplay VERY thrilling. I can feel my heart beating like a hammer when my arm has been blown off and my CT is orange, just hardly clinging to my life, trying to use what weapons I have remaining to survive the brutal skirmish. And I know that my 'mech is done for the rest of the match if I can't, which forces me to be cautious and conservative with my 'mech's health and ammo. In Hawken, it's just like "dakka dakka TOW dakka dakka WOOSH dakka dakka TOW dakka WOSH I'm dead. Oh well, just wait a couple of seconds to respawn!" which just doesn't do it for me although I understand the appeal.
In addition, I find that using new loadouts is also very thrilling and though-provoking. You really have to think it out to come up with a viable build, and it's just so exciting to go in with a new loadout and see how it works. These are the sim features that make me love this game.

#88 KingCobra

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:44 AM

View PostLolpingu, on 24 March 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Aye. There are some elements of simulation that make gameplay VERY thrilling. I can feel my heart beating like a hammer when my arm has been blown off and my CT is orange, just hardly clinging to my life, trying to use what weapons I have remaining to survive the brutal skirmish. And I know that my 'mech is done for the rest of the match if I can't, which forces me to be cautious and conservative with my 'mech's health and ammo. In Hawken, it's just like "dakka dakka TOW dakka dakka WOOSH dakka dakka TOW dakka WOSH I'm dead. Oh well, just wait a couple of seconds to respawn!" which just doesn't do it for me although I understand the appeal.
In addition, I find that using new loadouts is also very thrilling and though-provoking. You really have to think it out to come up with a viable build, and it's just so exciting to go in with a new loadout and see how it works. These are the sim features that make me love this game.


+10 to this also like you as a player I still fell this way about the core game play despite all the QQ about ECM ETC after almost 2 years. But for many it needs more in depth content to go along with what you are describing to be a whole complete MechWarrior game. Posted Image

#89 Forestal

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:31 PM

View PostGrayseven, on 24 March 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

All of which is real. Every thing you stated is a real thing. Reality is easy to simulate. There are no Battlemechs and I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will never be Battlemechs so simulating one is problematic. Especially for a game.

Err, no, the Earth-centric and Sun-centric models of the universe simulated things that were not real... just like the way Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri simulated a 4X extraterrestrial civiliation-building process that was even farther from reality than landing on Mars.

But keep going, I'm just enjoying myself seeing how many thousand ways you guys with "sim-phobia" can pretend that it is not a integral part of the human thinking process-- just so you don't have to face your fears... :P

#90 FupDup

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:48 PM

Something I've noticed about the whole simmie mindset is that it often has very little to do with the current game mechanics; rather, it is a matter of rugged individualism. Basically, they want the game to look like a unique little snowflake, so they call it a simulator to make it more snowflakelike.

However, the flaw with that reasoning is that our current mechanics already set the game apart from everything else ever made regardless of what we call it. MWO's pacing, limited ammo (can never refill), heat system, throttled-movement, dual-reticules, Battletech lore background, and various other gameplay aspects make MWO very different from any other FPS ever made. MWO is already a beautiful snowflake. We don't need to invent labels to make it that way.

People are afraid that if we change MWO's label, it's going to somehow magically become something else even if not a single game mechanic gets altered from its present state. For instance, there is the misconception that calling it an "FPS" suddenly makes it like Call of Duty just because that game is also of that genre. Here's the catch: not every game of a genre is the same. Command & Conquer and Starcraft are both Real-Time Strategy, but they're nothing alike.

Edited by FupDup, 24 March 2013 - 05:48 PM.


#91 Forestal

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:51 PM

View PostLolpingu, on 24 March 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

In addition, I find that using new loadouts is also very thrilling and though-provoking. You really have to think it out to come up with a viable build, and it's just so exciting to go in with a new loadout and see how it works. These are the sim features that make me love this game.

+1.

That's the design element that got the "design/build-a-mech/squad" crowd in at the very start-- and that's why despite ECM and what have you, MWO has more or less avoided being destroyed by power creep...


It is what you might call the "incomparables", and a main selling point in MWO-- because "design" is very much personal choice/preference... your mech may have higher firepower/ heat efficiency/ whatever, but I might be more "comfortable" with playing my customized mech or "enjoy" running around a bit more even if it means shooting less.

INSTA-ACTION reduces such design elements, or at least the "purpose" or "fulfilment" of having such design elements, because everything is centered around damage-PER-SECOND... i.e. "is this feature or game mechanic good or bad?" = "does it increase damage-PER-SECOND?"

TL;DR: And that is balance or tug-of-war that PGI must deal with-- building up MWO as Multiplayer-Online Battle-Arena.... without losing its uniqueness or selling point as a Mech-sim.

#92 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:52 PM

View PostDenno, on 24 March 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

We'll just have to see. Upon non-knee-jerk reflection I would be astonished if most of the Devs actually want 3rdpv considering what they have stated in the past about it. Assuming that, it leaves the question of why now? This stinks of marketing and 3rd party bean counters, not developers.



Only if they make it OP. If it turns out that competitive gameplay/FW types use only 1stpv then it should be all good. Hopefully 3rdpv ends up being training wheels/scrub court. My only concern is this might fragment the population, particularly with the proposed regional server deal.


only if they make it op.

ONLY IF THEY MAKE IT OP GUIZ!!!!!

you really think PGI wouldn't screw this one up too?!

#93 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostDenno, on 24 March 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

This stinks of marketing and 3rd party bean counters, not developers.


Look at the Go Ballistic! video. There are five in cockpit views in the whole vid. The rest is outside the mech shots. Theyre marketting it as 3rd person. When ppl see that, and get in the game, theyre gonna be pissed that its not 3rd person like theyre advertising.
Or thats what theyre thinking I think


Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 24 March 2013 - 06:07 PM.


#94 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostKingCobra, on 24 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:


+10 to this also like you as a player I still fell this way about the core game play despite all the QQ about ECM ETC after almost 2 years. But for many it needs more in depth content to go along with what you are describing to be a whole complete MechWarrior game. Posted Image


Uh in june/july it will then be ONE year... not two

View PostForestal, on 24 March 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

+1.

That's the design element that got the "design/build-a-mech/squad" crowd in at the very start-- and that's why despite ECM and what have you, MWO has more or less avoided being destroyed by power creep...


It is what you might call the "incomparables", and a main selling point in MWO-- because "design" is very much personal choice/preference... your mech may have higher firepower/ heat efficiency/ whatever, but I might be more "comfortable" with playing my customized mech or "enjoy" running around a bit more even if it means shooting less.

INSTA-ACTION reduces such design elements, or at least the "purpose" or "fulfilment" of having such design elements, because everything is centered around damage-PER-SECOND... i.e. "is this feature or game mechanic good or bad?" = "does it increase damage-PER-SECOND?"

TL;DR: And that is balance or tug-of-war that PGI must deal with-- building up MWO as Multiplayer-Online Battle-Arena.... without losing its uniqueness or selling point as a Mech-sim.


power creep is the clans.

#95 PANZERBUNNY

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:15 PM

Polls speak louder than all the crying.

Over 1300 people saying it's a bad idea and just over 100 ish saying it's a good idea.

#96 PANZERBUNNY

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostJackson Jax Teller, on 24 March 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:


and people who dont play the game speak louder than anyone who does or posts on this forum according to the devs


You mean those people they may woo, try the game out and then lemming off to get hooked on whatever new title is out?

Ignoring the people here for theoretical new retentions based off of implementing a feature that thousands of people are spitting venom about...0_o.

Whatever.

Someone seems to be on a crusade up there.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 24 March 2013 - 07:20 PM.


#97 Valaska

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostEttibber, on 22 March 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

obnoxious? try broken, it's one of the reasons poptarting was so popular in MW4


THere were maybe 5% or the servers that allowed third person mode due to poptarting, poptarting was popular period, even on first person locked servers (nearly all of them after a couple weeks lol).

#98 Guido

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:25 PM

Okay, I read through all the posts to check what I would say that would just be beating a dead horse, so I'll keep those areas short.

First, many people have said already that the books don't speak of heat seeking missiles. This is true. I'm not a BT junkie by any means; I'm reading through the series from the beginning for the first time, from e-books. Not once have I seen mention of anything heat-seeking other than the thermal vision that is one of several visions modes, such as color vision (normal) and MAD (I think they call it something different) which is Magnetic Anomaly Detection. All views do have the 360 vision compressed into normal human field of view, as well as the cockpits being void of any glass, as opposed to the artistic liberties that many images of mechs have.

That said, the Neurohelmet not only controls the mech's balance, but pretty much all movement. Walking, rolling, leaning, stepping from side to side, ducking, and so on are controlled by the Neural interface. We can't actually control games through a thought, so having that freedom of movement isn't a reality. Weapons and arms are still controlled by a Joystick for each arm, although mechs like the Jenner don't have arms, and therefore are controlled by a single Joystick.

With that kind of functionality, if any human-computer interface were able to recreate that level of control, I'm sure that the simulation would become possible. As is, it won't.

Now, about the physics. You are trying to make a point about the physics, and you are correct, it doesn't have Neutonian physics. However, you are using a 90 ton mech for an example. The fact is, the mechs you are saying would sway and fall in a blizzard at 90 tons is completely false, even using the actual laws of physics. That mass isn't 5 or 10 stories tall, you're talking about a machine that weighs in at 90 tons and is only 15-20 feet tall, so around 2 stories. Anything short of a class 4 tornado isn't going to do anything to budge that. In the books, these mechs have to walk on specific-purpose surfaces in order not to cause massive damage by sheer weight. I'm not saying that the book science works, everyone knows there's been a lot of liberties taken from the authors on what is considered sound science, but by physics none of these mechs will be bothered by that little blizzard.

On to the gaming aspect. 3rd person does and will change the game, splitting an already small community of gamers (less than a million worldwide) into two camps. There will be players who cannot play this game in a first person view. It is difficult for them to consciously focus on manipulating both chassis direction and field of view separately without seeing the direction their separate entities are pointing. Then there are players who love the fact that they have to play in that manner, and that it feels much more immersive to them because of it. It certainly separates this game from a typical FPS or 3PS in the bunny rabbit strafing.

I personally loathe the idea of putting in 3rd person, because I run a competitive company, and I don't want to be forced to play in 3rd person in order to prevent losing a sight advantage over those who do use it. You don't think that third person view changes things? Referring to Mechwarrior 4 is a lost cause, because a lot of the player base that is here today didn't play competitively on that. I know I didn't, but I also know that most MW4 competitions were played in 3rd person. Instead, try imagining if you will, fighting someone playing Gears of War while playing as a Halo view that has serious limitations in movement speed. You can't see around the corners, but sure as sh*t he can. You turn a corner, run through a tunnel towards an opening, and your exact position is already compromised, and the guy around the corner didn't even have to expose his position nor his skin in the slightest to gain that information. It ruins the tactical aspect of this game, and real tactics are hard to come by in a 3rd person game.

For the trolls that are going to post that my thread is too long, I don't care. I can only hope that your RL conversation skills are somewhat less rudimentary than the asparagus you compete with to identify who or what has a greater attention span.





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