85 replies to this topic

[Seox]

Khobai, on 25 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Because a skill-based game which challenges players and promotes competition will attract more players than a hold-your-hands kiddie game which rolls dice.

Dice rolling is fine in battletech, since its a casual game that you play for fun, but MWO has potential to be fiercely competitive in a way tabletop never was. And that is a good thing for an mmo game.

The truest expression of player skill is exactly what we should shoot for. I keep expressing this too, but they keep insisting that breaking convergence "isn't RNG."

To make it clear, no human being can compensate for parallax on six weapons at once, meaning that people will either walk their shots up or "eyeball it", creating misses and hits that shouldn't be. You'd have to minutely rotate your torso between individual hits even if you DID know the exact place to aim to compensate for parallax to hit on target. It would greatly artificially cap skill, and I cannot fathom why a skilled player who was eager to grow would want to do that.

[Khobai]

Well to clarify though, I never said there wasnt a problem with convergence, there very much is a problem. But the solution needs to be one that doesnt diminish player skill.

[Seox]

Khobai, on 25 March 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Well to clarify though, I never said there wasnt a problem with convergence, there very much is a problem. But the solution needs to be one that doesnt diminish player skill.

The only problem I have with "fixing" convergence is doing it in a way that breaks player skill; I absolutely agree with that. I don't see a problem with adjusting convergence so long as it doesn't indiscriminately do the work of a scalpel with a satellite laser

[Zyllos]

Seox, on 25 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

The truest expression of player skill is exactly what we should shoot for. I keep expressing this too, but they keep insisting that breaking convergence "isn't RNG."

To make it clear, no human being can compensate for parallax on six weapons at once, meaning that people will either walk their shots up or "eyeball it", creating misses and hits that shouldn't be. You'd have to minutely rotate your torso between individual hits even if you DID know the exact place to aim to compensate for parallax to hit on target. It would greatly artificially cap skill, and I cannot fathom why a skilled player who was eager to grow would want to do that.

Ok, obviously neither of us can agree that the suggestion be better for the community and the game.

So lets turn the subject around, why is it good that all weapons should be hitting a single point when fired at the same time?

[Khobai]

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So lets turn the subject around, why is it good that all weapons should be hitting a single point when fired at the same time?

Because aiming is indicative of skill and better players aim more accurately than worse players.

There is nothing wrong with allowing all weapons to hit a single location provided the armor values are balanced around that. Unfortunately the armor values were using are balanced with random hit locations in mind instead of aiming. So all thats needed to bring everything back into parity is tweaking armor values to be balanced with aiming rather than being balanced with random hit locations.

Edited by Khobai, 25 March 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[Zyllos]

Khobai, on 25 March 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Because aiming is indicative of skill and better players aim more accurately than worse players.

There is nothing wrong with allowing all weapons to hit a single location provided the armor values are balanced around that. Unfortunately the armor values were using are based on random hit locations instead of aiming. So all thats needed to bring everything back into parity is tweaking armor values based on aiming rather than random hit locations.

This is a very common thing that many players say about the pin-point damage. Modifying armor to make up for locations that normally are not hit and for those locations that are hit many time.

But, if you move that arm armor (since is it rarely hit), there will be a point where taking out that arm is too easy because you can aim and land that damage at any time.

And how does that balance across mechs that already don't want weapons in the arms (Centurion) because it's already easy to remove the weapon so it already considered wasted tonnage? Do you modify armor on an individual basis?

[StalaggtIKE]

Both the OP and Cyke made great opposing points. As Cyke posted, I feel that this would add a steeper learning curve to the game. With the "pro" players simply adapting and leaving everyone else even further behind. However the way that weapons easily converge is detrimental to a fair fight. A shutdown mech is so easy to kill. Just aim at the cockpit and BAM you got yourself a free kill. It is too easy, almost stupid easy. When I shutdown face to face to a mech and not immediately "pitted", I know I'm dealing with an amateur.

[EmperorMyrf]

Something I failed to mention in my previous post. I'm sure I mentioned in one of the last iterations of this thread, but here we go again.

One compromise to the situation would be to limit the angle of convergence on all weapons (yes even arms, but not like you're thinking). I found that limiting the angle of convergence to 0.25 degrees would be a proper compromise. Everything is still difficult to hit with all weapons at once at all ranges, but without making the reticle point at infinity all the time. It is difficult at long range for the same reason it's always been, it's a smaller target. With the fix, it would be a bit more difficult in short range to land all on one spot because now the weapons don't completely converge any more. The necessary mental calculations at short and long ranges are then somewhat equal, unlike the current point and click reflex shots at short range. All this does is simply spreads out damage up close, so point blank precision is not as easy, which then makes short range boats play by roughly the same rules. The emphasis on targeting arms is also increased, as arms will be relatively reliable for hitting on point at short ranges

The 0.25 degrees was not arbitrarily chosen. I based all the math off of the HBK-4P, and it was designed so that all of its lasers converge to a point at roughly 450m. Smaller, faster mechs will have hardpoints closer to their center, so their weapons will converge slightly sooner, and assaults will see an opposite effect. Once host state rewind comes fully into effect, lights and mediums are going to need all the help they can get to keep things even, and this would be a subtle change to help them out a bit.

As far as it being an issue of individual weapon balance, it will likely have little effect. More of a way to help control the pace of the game.

[Khobai]

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This is a very common thing that many players say about the pin-point damage. Modifying armor to make up for locations that normally are not hit and for those locations that are hit many time.

But, if you move that arm armor (since is it rarely hit), there will be a point where taking out that arm is too easy because you can aim and land that damage at any time.

And how does that balance across mechs that already don't want weapons in the arms (Centurion) because it's already easy to remove the weapon so it already considered wasted tonnage? Do you modify armor on an individual basis?

Simple. You do it on a mech-by-mech basis.

PGI can stat mine to see how often each mech gets hit in each location and then redistribute armor values based on those stats

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 26 March 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

Simple. You do it on a mech-by-mech basis.

PGI can stat mine to see how often each mech gets hit in each location and then redistribute armor values based on those stats

Exactly that is the way it should be.

However there is one thing...i can remember some discussions that the Atlas is so a menacing foe - for new players.

When you increase the side torso because every average player should be able to hit that location - those topics will flash out again. So you will see just Atlas in the lesser ranks - they learn to get used to Atlas - and in the upper ranks the Atlas even with trippel or quadruple armor at the side location could still be prey, because of those convergence issues.

To change nothing is bad...to change things to fast is bad too.

[Prezimonto]

Again, fixed convergence arc for torso hardpoints would involve more skill not less and fix some of this.

Alternatively, putting a zero-in time on the the convergence when you significantly change ranges would also help. Most games that offer sniping balance it with scope sway and/or other mechanics to slow down snipers.

I'm not in favor of random spread even if it does reflect real world conditions where wind, air resistance, ect... all come into play, but there are mechanics that could be tweaked to keep skill with aiming but not reward massive boat alpha strikes so heavily.

[Karl Streiger]

A guy in the german subforum came with this idea... just fixed convergence...nothing else...

here it comes...but i have to admit that i did not care about licence so it comes with modifications

Weapons may be able to calibrate on a horicontal axis...but not on a vertical point.

The HUD- could look like this for a Hunchback points for whitespace
....----
x....... x
The stripe is for the convergence of the torso gun...all weapons will hit in a area covered by the stripe. Arm convergence are each for his own...while it would be quiete interesting to move each arm for its own.

Maybe you could let arms converge when shooting into the frontal area:
.....----
...x..x

And this when shooting into the right area
... ----
.....x............... x

However i think the Alpha Strike Skill faction would have some hard times with that

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 March 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Tyren Dian]

I like. Your modifications of my brain diarrhia are quite good.

[Larkis]

I liked it too. Great idea.

[Schrottfrosch]

I am absolutely against random hit probability like in WoT. And I think everyone in this thread dislikes randomness, just like I do.

But something needs to be done about being able to alpha strike with pinpoint accuracy:
I was completely fine with the aiming mechanics in this game so far, until I hopped on the dual-AC/20 Jagermech - Bandwaggon. I did recieve quite a bunch of headshots in my life as a mechwarrior, as I especially played catapults in my early days (I still do love my cats and let them out every now and then). I also did my fair share of headshots - but today I headshotted 3 mechs in a row, with 3 subsequent volleys of my dual-AC/20-Jagermech, the third was a Jenner running full speed through my field of view. It was on frozen city, so they couldnt evade me.

I do not know what can be done about it really, but I find some ideas in this thread really nice.

My suggestion would be to be able to adjust your weapon convergance point by yourself, just like with multiple machineguns in wings of WWII fighter planes. This should also aply to arms with no lower actuators like Jagermech- and Stalker-arms.

The default weapon convergance point should be the weapons optimal range (I think it is called "long range" in the mechbay stats), but I should be able to adjust it to whatever value I like, or maybe at least in a range that makes sense (like not at 1 meter in front of me...). With my AC/20s I would still be able to hit exactly one location, but only at 270m or whatever custom range I adjusted the convergance point to.

[Revorn]

Great idea, it would make Game more intresting for me.

Edited by Revorn, 26 March 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Again, fixed convergence arc for torso hardpoints would involve more skill not less and fix some of this.

Weapons should aim where your reticle is. That's how all shooter video games work. Two reticles is already bad enough for new players. Adding that nonsense with a reticle for each weapon would just make the game unintuitive and overcomplicated for new players. There are far easier ways to fix the problem.

Again the problem isn't that weapons can converge. The problem is that were using archaic armor values from a game with random hit locations instead of revised armor values designed to handle aimed shots.

In tabletop a side torso gets hit 14% of the time. In MWO that same side torso can be hit 100% of the time with perfect aim. That's a seven-fold damage increase. Now armor was doubled so we can divide that in half... but its still 3.5 times more damage than its armored to handle.

Mostly side torso and center torso armor just needs to be significantly increased.

Edited by Khobai, 26 March 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Schrottfrosch, on 26 March 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

I am absolutely against random hit probability like in WoT. And I think everyone in this thread dislikes randomness, just like I do.

But something needs to be done about being able to alpha strike with pinpoint accuracy:
I was completely fine with the aiming mechanics in this game so far, until I hopped on the dual-AC/20 Jagermech - Bandwaggon. I did recieve quite a bunch of headshots in my life as a mechwarrior, as I especially played catapults in my early days (I still do love my cats and let them out every now and then). I also did my fair share of headshots - but today I headshotted 3 mechs in a row, with 3 subsequent volleys of my dual-AC/20-Jagermech, the third was a Jenner running full speed through my field of view. It was on frozen city, so they couldnt evade me.

I do not know what can be done about it really, but I find some ideas in this thread really nice.

My suggestion would be to be able to adjust your weapon convergance point by yourself, just like with multiple machineguns in wings of WWII fighter planes. This should also aply to arms with no lower actuators like Jagermech- and Stalker-arms.

The default weapon convergance point should be the weapons optimal range (I think it is called "long range" in the mechbay stats), but I should be able to adjust it to whatever value I like, or maybe at least in a range that makes sense (like not at 1 meter in front of me...). With my AC/20s I would still be able to hit exactly one location, but only at 270m or whatever custom range I adjusted the convergance point to.

I've been saying this in multiple threads for a while now. This will only make the game have more depth of play both in game and in the mech lab. It will also largely elimination constant full alphas on the fly as a good pilot will have to jockey carefully for position and a less skillful pilot probably just can't do this reliably.

[Prezimonto]

khobai, how many shooters have giant stampy robots with 4 to 10 or more different weapons all firing at the same time? You're basing your argument on tradition and ignoring the fact that it's an un-fun mechanic in a shooter for everyone but max damage alpha strike load outs.

More armor just exacerbates the problem as the ONLY way to reliably penetrate the armor then becomes repeated max alpha strikes.

[Khobai]

Quote

khobai, how many shooters have giant stampy robots with 4 to 10 or more different weapons all firing at the same time?

Doesnt matter if you have 1 gun or 1000 guns. The basic principle of your guns shoot where your reticle is aimed is exactly the same.

Quote

More armor just exacerbates the problem as the ONLY way to reliably penetrate the armor then becomes repeated max alpha strikes.

It doesnt exacerbate the problem at all. The problem is mechs dying too fast. Increasing armor would make mechs die slower. So its fixing the problem.