85 replies to this topic

[Elyam]

I want to post my support of the Op's general intent. It really is difficult to get around the problem of multiple weapon damage simultaneous to the same target point and the presence of precise reticle aiming (two things PGI built in to MWO either due to personal preference or to an estimatiion that more of the online player base wants these things) within a universe built for ever-present randomness due to technology limitations.

Though I doubt resolution will ever occur among the following groups...

Camp 1: players knowledgeable in universe canon who believe that there are some components necessary to all iterations of BT, despite the medium (TT, computer, movies, comics, cards, etc.); the most explicit, controversial, and argument-inducing component being that BT's diminished-technology realities mean that things aren't dependable, and randomness is one of the natural, ever-present challenges of life in and around the Inner Sphere - something not just a product of the original dice-based play, but an intentional dramatic quality of a civilization fallen, rebuilding, and tripping over and over. This is also accompanied by the belief that any production of BT will be better and have better play when insuring the inclusion of such integral universe components

Camp 2: players with the same knowledge as those in Camp 1 but who believe many components of the BT universe belong only to certain mediums and in fact are only existant in canon as a way to explain the necessity of some mechanics the players are faced with; as above, the most controversial being the randomness factors that this camp does believe is only a device and something not necessary to portraying BT's diminished-tech situation. This is also accompanied by a belief similar to that of Camp 3 but with a stronger dedication to melding established BT norms with the new production

Camp 3: players who may or may not know the BT universe well, but who believe foremost that making the best (whether defined as most challenging, most fun, or most profitable) production for the immediate medium (in this case a competition online game) trumps all else, and that this is natural, is smart business, and that the property behind the production must and will bend and evolve to fit what reality proscribes. This is often accompanied by a persistant urge to not be hamstrung by what came before, and sometimes a wish that the developer could strike out with their own unique creation solely to allow unfettered choices

There is all kinds fo bleedover between these camps when it comes to the thinking of individuals. Regardless, we can depend on the debates continuing.

[TexAce]

why not just do this: http://mwomercs.com/...rent-crosshair/

visual feedback for pinpoint convergence in trade for slower adjusting time.

Edited by TexAss, 28 March 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[Prezimonto]

I've suggested essentially the same mechanic many times as an alternative. Adding a delay to the perfect convergence of weapons would fix this for everything but snipers, and make snipers have to be willing to trade shots to land hits.

[Pht]

Seox said:

And if you want to play a game that craps on people who are more skilled than you to drag them down to your level while rewarding you for playing like a moron, go play WoT.

Ok. So you really DON'T want to play a game about piloting mechs in combat.

You want to play a visual variant of quake 3; which is fine, in and of itself. What isn't fine is your insistence in giving aid and comfort to those who want a game about piloting mechs in combat to be about anything *but* piloting mechs in combat.

Do you also go on the WoW forums and insist that it shouldn't be an mmorpg?

Khobai said:

Because a skill-based game which challenges players and promotes competition will attract more players...

You've talked to every potential player, such that you could even begin to have a valid way of knowhing this?

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... than a hold-your-hands kiddie game which rolls dice.

This: http://www.mwomercs....different-idea/

... is absolutely nothing even remotely like a "hold your hands kiddie" game.

You still have to use skill in manipulating the reticle - all the skill you need in a shooter type game... in fact, it requries MORE skill than a shooter type game, because while the Genre demands that the 'mech calculates the convergence point (lead) in real time - it replaces that one "skill" with:

Having to keep track of your 'mechs internal heat level and how it will affect your mech's ability to make the shot you are asking of it.

Having to keep track of how your current movement mode will affect your mech's ability to make the shot.

Having to keep track of how your 'mech's current state of damage will affect it's ability to make the shot.

Having to keep track of your target's movement and knowing how that will affect your 'mech's ability to make the shot.

Having to keep track of the terrain your target is in and knowing how that type of terrain might affect your mech's ability to make the shot.

Having to know how the environment your 'mech is operating in could affect your 'Mech's ability to make the shot.

Having to know how your various weapons and their varying ammunition types and firing modes will affect your mech's ability to make the shot.

... this is nothing like "hand holding."

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Dice rolling is fine in battletech, since its a casual game that you play for fun,...

The TT is not a casual game... not unless you want to call a game like axis and allies, or chess... "casual."

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...but MWO has potential to be fiercely competitive in a way tabletop never was. And that is a good thing for an mmo game.

"Competitiveness" is not a qualitiy of any game. It is a quality of persons, and people can be insanely competitive playing at something as simple as tic-tac-toe or checkers.

[Pht]

Seox, on 25 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

The truest expression of player skill is exactly what we should shoot for.

Player skill at what?

Only skill at Manipulating a reticule and timing weapons velocity vs target movement?

Or, as those of us who want a genuine mechwarrior video game want ...

Skill at manipulating a reticule AND skill at knowing your 'Mech's ability under whatever conditions to make that shot?

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I keep expressing this too, but they keep insisting that breaking convergence "isn't RNG."

Some of the "they" don't insist on this.

There's nothing wrong with an RNG - inside of a predictable and controllable spread based upon easily grasped conditions - AND - used to simulate the MECH'S abilities, not the pilot's abilities.

Khobai, on 25 March 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Because aiming is indicative of skill and better players aim more accurately than worse players.

Which would still 100% factor if the game actually simulated the 'mech's combat weapons-handling capabilities.

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Unfortunately the armor values were using are balanced with random hit locations in mind instead of aiming.

Use of the to-hit mechanic (does my shot connect) and the hit-location mechanic (what particular part does it hit if it connected) does not remove skillful aiming from the equation.

Saying that they do is just the same as if we said that 2500 meter shots are random and require no human skill, because the sniper can't predict exactly where his shot is going to connect.

[Blackfire1]

I'm glad this thread has enlarged itself over the past while.
I bought this up countless times back in early beta (No really, I lost count) About how weapon convergence would lead to a very irregular balanced game. Such as it has now.

How a pilot should be good at piloting his select mech because its config and convergence is different then others. They literally gain skill in that chassis. I can understand arm linking. However I've always been for there to be limited torso convergence. Meaning a Swayback would have all his lasers converge at the max range or a range set by the pilot. Anything too far and its spreads anything to close and it spreads, or go the standard route and have them all aim straight and force the user to learn how to aim and pilot his mech.

I begged for this. Not once did I hear any good reason not to do it.

Edited by Blackfire1, 28 March 2013 - 07:15 PM.