60 replies to this topic

[Phaesphoros]

Inspired by Amaris' tests on (S)SRM damage and after the observation (on servers) that LB 10-X AC doesn't feel right, I've conducted a series of tests on testing grounds.

2 LB 10-X AC have been fired multiple times from several distances, aiming for CT of an AWS. Details see Methodology section.

Test results:
Expected maximum damage: 20 (all pellets hit)


Note:

• I guess the main error / std deviation source is the % health granularity.
  
• average DMG is reduced as not all pellets hit the mech
  
• Long range of LB 10-X AC is 540 m, max range is 1620 m.
  
• At ranges <= 90 m, every pellet hits; at ranges <= 50 m, every pellet hits CT.

Methodology:

• Test vehicle: CTPLT-K2
  
• Test weapon setup: 2 LB 10-X AC, shooting both in one weapon group
  
• Target mech: AWS-8Q
  
• Aimed at middle of CT
  
• Map: River City (Night)
  
• Match was restarted when AWS was severly damaged.
  
• For each distance >= 180 m, more than 20 salvos (40 shot) have been fired (yes, 40 LBX shots don't kill the AWS). 90 m: 8 salvos, 135 m: 9 salvos
  
• dmg values calculated using % health
  
• 4 tests have been in more detail to include std deviation (of individual salvos vs. average salvo) as error bars.

Additional spread test:
Same map & mechs, 20 salvos from 200 m, aiming at CT. Then stripping remaining armor using ML and MG, counting ML shots and MG bullets to calculate remaining armor of a section. Error estimation is max error based on remaining health % (there's some dmg to internals). dmg % refers to how much of total dmg has been done to a section. Only one test has been conducted.

Edited by Phaesphoros, 23 March 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Signal27]

Good work!

Now with the damage reduction to missiles, think you could do the same kind of research with SRMs?

Edited by Signal27, 23 March 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Mister Haha]

I use the LBX10 and I find it to work effectively. There's some trolls out there that say it's crap, but then again, they usually get blown up by it.

[jakucha]

I reaaaally want them to make LBX into a weapon worth using.

[Voridan Atreides]

Mister Haha, on 23 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I use the LBX10 and I find it to work effectively. There's some trolls out there that say it's crap, but then again, they usually get blown up by it.

I can count how many times on my fingers Ive been blown up by an LBX10.

[Mister Haha]

Voridan Atreides, on 23 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

I can count how many times on my fingers Ive been blown up by an LBX10.

It's such a popular weapon, I can't see why that would be.

[Moonsavage]

The distance between weapon mounts also affects the damage output of many weapons.

[Signal27]

jakucha, on 23 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I reaaaally want them to make LBX into a weapon worth using.

Ironically, with the missile nerf, they might have indirectly done just that.

[Mike Townsend]

Takeaways: The LBX is effectively a much less tonnage efficient, shorter range SRM. If you're running a build with MLs and SRMs and you have full armor, any other gear you want, plenty of heatsinks, and you just happen to have a ballistic hardpoint, 8 critical slots, and 13 tons you have no idea what to do with, an LBX isn't a terrible complement to the SRM and ML.

[armyof1]

Nice work, after seeing this I won't be touching another LB10-X until they do something to improve it. 25% missing when aiming at AWS huge CT from 150m is just crazy bad.

[ShadowbaneX]

Fixing the LB-10/X is easy: give us standard ammo with it and let us switch between standard and cluster. I'd love to run a K2 Cat with an LB-10/X(s)

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 23 March 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[StandingInFire]

My favorite solution for the LBX is to give it a "proximity fuse" (it fires out 1 shell then once it gets x distance from a surface/mech directly in front of it it explodes into the pellets) allowing it to be used at longer ranges then SRMs with the obvious tonnage drawbacks.

Edit:
This also prevents a repeat of the AC5/UAC5 case where 1 is better than the other in all situations since it will have a unique role.

Edited by StandingInFire, 23 March 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Phaesphoros]

IMHO, LB 10-X AC is only superior to AC/10 < 100 m, as it has 1 less heat, weighs 1 ton less and occupies 1 less crit slot.
Invert the perspective: For 1 more heat (50 %), 1 ton and 1 crit slot you get a weapon that is far superior for > 100 m, and comparable at < 100 m (same damage, less crit damage, but focused on one internal item).

[skullman86]

StandingInFire, on 23 March 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

My favorite solution for the LBX is to give it a "proximity fuse" (it fires out 1 shell then once it gets x distance from a surface/mech directly in front of it it explodes into the pellets) allowing it to be used at longer ranges then SRMs with the obvious tonnage drawbacks.

Edit:
This also prevents a repeat of the AC5/UAC5 case where 1 is better than the other in all situations since it will have a unique role.

THIS

[Commander Kobold]

Mister Haha, on 23 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I use the LBX10 and I find it to work effectively. There's some trolls out there that say it's crap, but then again, they usually get blown up by it.

they're not trolls, it is bad

[Alex Novian]

jakucha, on 23 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I reaaaally want them to make LBX into a weapon worth using.

I would think a choak toggle would work. slow down the cycle time but allow a tighter cone to let something actualy hit at max range.

then again. letting us have 2 types of munitions would also be... loreish wouldn't it...

[General Taskeen]

Voridan Atreides, on 23 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

I can count how many times on my fingers Ive been blown up by an LBX10.

I count 0 with my fingers.

People are totally bought into this Myth, created by PGI, that an LB 10-X is a close range shotgun. PGI also fell for this myth, like the MG, hence why its bad. This is the wrong assumption. It is a long range 'shotgun-like,' and right now it is a bad because it can not take advantage of its range, period, hence it says 540m. How many people have actually tested how many pellets hit at that range? I did, and its between 1 and 2 pellets.

Every Mech game to date has made the cluster pellets all hit a target at its effective range, and they upped the damage per pellet to make it a competitive choice.

Edited by General Taskeen, 23 March 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

The thing is that the LB 10-X isn't a bad weapon. It just lacks the benefit that SRMs enjoy: converging on the reticle. The LB just shoots a shotgun pattern with a scatter pattern based on the range to target. As you need to lead your target to hit with it, it SHOULD have a much tighter patter. Thing is that it doesn't. So, you're ultimately spending 11 tons on a weapon that both spreads the damage done around the entirety of the target but also does upwards to 75% less than the listed damage.

[Sybreed]

nice work, kinda proves how worthless it is. It would be nice if Paul or Thomas came here and told us "Don't worry guys, we're gonna buff the heck out of it. Same with MGs"

[FrostCollar]

General Taskeen, on 23 March 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

I count 0 with my fingers.

People are totally bought into this Myth, created by PGI, that an LB 10-X is a close range shotgun. PGI also fell for this myth, like the MG, hence why its bad. This is the wrong assumption. It is a long range 'shotgun-like,' and right now it is a bad because it can not take advantage of its range, period, hence it says 540m. How many people have actually tested how many pellets hit at that range? I did, and its between 1 and 2 pellets.

Every Mech game to date has made the cluster pellets all hit a target at its effective range, and they upped the damage per pellet to make it a competitive choice.

This is correct. I can't remember dying to any either. Most weapons are less effective outside their effective range, but only the LBX 10 ceases to be a threat even inside that range.

I tried the LBX 10 a number of times, tempted by the siren song of "it's good against lights!" However, one of it's most unique attributes is its ability to spread around and therefore dilute its damage even at closer range. This makes it uniquely bad. Given the LBX's already low damage, that's not good enough for its weight.

At the very least, it needs a tighter spread and/or, as some have suggested, a cylindrical rather than a conical spread. Personally, I think it needs a damage buff too.

EDIT:

Trauglodyte, on 23 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

The LB just shoots a shotgun pattern with a scatter pattern based on the range to target. As you need to lead your target to hit with it, it SHOULD have a much tighter patter. Thing is that it doesn't. So, you're ultimately spending 11 tons on a weapon that both spreads the damage done around the entirety of the target but also does upwards to 75% less than the listed damage.

Again, good points. If you're going to have a weapon that spreads its damage around, it should at least be pretty powerful.

Edited by FrostCollar, 23 March 2013 - 01:18 PM.