47 replies to this topic

[Spleenslitta]

I've haven't seen a single member on this site say something good about the AC2.
It has a lousy reputation for dealing damage. One person even said it was useless because of it's low damage.
There are others that say- An ER PPC is almost the same weight, endless ammo, better damage so i'll take that instead.
The AC2 is not even considered to be a proper weapon in BT.

The AC2's low damage is just right and proper, but please make it so that this time the fire rate is high enough to make it a viable weapon this time.

The SRM2 has it the same way when i think about it.
It's harder to aim than a medium laser, slightly less damage, ammo dependent, takes one more critical space due to ammunition, threat of ammo explosion makes CASE an important thing to add(that's another critical space for a total of three).


If a small laser can be a viable weapon because of it's low weight and cheap price then the AC2 and SRM2 deserves to have a niche of their own as well.
Don't make these weapons just so that you can say that you have every single BT weapon available at 3049.

Thanks for your attention.

[Stormeris]

Well Autocannon/2 has extremely long range, probably the longest of all the available weapons, and maybe adding a f*ckton of AC/2 on everypart of your mech that can take them would be kind of epic, and SRM-2 well, id rather use SRM-6

[Spleenslitta]

Stormeris, on 26 May 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Well Autocannon/2 has extremely long range, probably the longest of all the available weapons, and maybe adding a f*ckton of AC/2 on everypart of your mech that can take them would be kind of epic, and SRM-2 well, id rather use SRM-6

Yes the part about range is true but the AC2 has 720 meters range when we convert from TT ranges into meters.
The ER PPC has a range of 690 meters...that's only 30 meters difference. The difference is minimal.

As for the SRM 2....Well yes i would much rather use the SRM 4 or 6 too.
But the point here is that the SRM 2 is not being concidered as a viable weapon by anyone.
That's a flaw in the game for sure. What is the point of having weapons that nobody use?

Edited by Spleenslitta, 26 May 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Stormeris]

Theyll probably be used due to tonnage, being light i guess, when you have some extra space you can add an extra AC/2 or something

Edited by Stormeris, 26 May 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[Roland]

Quote

There are others that say- An ER PPC is almost the same weight, endless ammo, better damage so i'll take that instead.
The AC2 is not even considered to be a proper weapon in BT.

Well, the ERPPC also has a 1/1 heat/damage ratio, whereas the AC2's ratio is 1/2.

Bear in mind that mechs aren't just huge gun bags in this game. You can't always just take the ER-PPC... Because you may not have the slots for it.

Every weapon in Battletech is not going to be equal to every other weapon... mainly because you're mixing a bunch of different generations of weapon technology. But things you need to consider as well is that these weapons actually cost something. If you load up the best of everything, it may give you an edge compared to someone using cheaper parts, but you're gonna be paying a lot more for repairs than he will. Looking at the BT costs, an ERPPC costs 300k. An AC2 costs 75k. And the battle value difference is even more huge. And IS ERPPC's BV is 228... an AC2's? 5.

The reality is that an ERPPC is a better, more advanced weapon than the AC2. You're never gonna make them equivalent. But that doesn't mean that the AC2 will have no place in the game. I know some folks in MW4 had some pretty funny AC2 configs that could lay down some damage at long range.

[Spleenslitta]

Stormeris, on 26 May 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Theyll probably be used due to tonnage, being light i guess, when you have some extra space you can add an extra AC/2 or something

Sad to dissapoint you Stormeris but an AC 2 weighs 6+1 tons. 6 for the AC and one more for the ammo.
The Inner Sphere ER PPC weighs 7 tons too so the AC2 has very few advantages except it's cheap price and fewer criticals...but the fewer criticals part is debatable since you need another crit for every ton of ammo and one more if you want a CASE.

[Roland]

But Spleen, the reality is that you're never really going to be choosing between an ERPPC and an AC/2. Those two weapons are never going to occupy the same location on a battlemech.

[Spleenslitta]

Roland, on 26 May 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well, the ERPPC also has a 1/1 heat/damage ratio, whereas the AC2's ratio is 1/2.

Bear in mind that mechs aren't just huge gun bags in this game. You can't always just take the ER-PPC... Because you may not have the slots for it.

Every weapon in Battletech is not going to be equal to every other weapon... mainly because you're mixing a bunch of different generations of weapon technology. But things you need to consider as well is that these weapons actually cost something. If you load up the best of everything, it may give you an edge compared to someone using cheaper parts, but you're gonna be paying a lot more for repairs than he will. Looking at the BT costs, an ERPPC costs 300k. An AC2 costs 75k. And the battle value difference is even more huge. And IS ERPPC's BV is 228... an AC2's? 5.

The reality is that an ERPPC is a better, more advanced weapon than the AC2. You're never gonna make them equivalent. But that doesn't mean that the AC2 will have no place in the game. I know some folks in MW4 had some pretty funny AC2 configs that could lay down some damage at long range.

I have looked at the price too. But i doubt anyone would consider that for long...they would just go for another longrange weapon if they can or just shave off some weight for an AC5 or UAC5.

And let's not forget the SRM 2...

[Stormeris]

Spleenslitta, on 26 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Sad to dissapoint you Stormeris but an AC 2 weighs 6+1 tons. 6 for the AC and one more for the ammo.
The Inner Sphere ER PPC weighs 7 tons too so the AC2 has very few advantages except it's cheap price and fewer criticals...but the fewer criticals part is debatable since you need another crit for every ton of ammo and one more if you want a CASE.

good point xD i sometimes write without putting any thought into it, although SRM-2 weight only 1 ton doesnt it?

Roland, on 26 May 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

But Spleen, the reality is that you're never really going to be choosing between an ERPPC and an AC/2. Those two weapons are never going to occupy the same location on a battlemech.

Unless its an omnimech...which arent coming out till the clans

[Roland]

Well, in MW4, the CSTRK4's were actually the best short range missile, although lots of folks mistakenly thought the CSTRK6's were what you wanted to use.

Due to the way knock-down mechanics worked, if you boated up a bunch of CSTRK4's, you could generate immense knock down power. I used to run an Arctic Wolf carrying a boatload of them, and could routinely knock down any other mech in the game, including assaults. We'd often run one of them in a lance, who was tasked solely with knocking down the entire enemy team over and over again.

Looking at the paper stats, you'd never have suspected the CSTRK4 was so good, but since it generated its force in two subsequent hits, you'd always get a first knock which would push the target almost to the edge of its balance, and then the second hit would come in and push them over.

All I'm saying is, don't give up on weapons based purely on what the stats say.

[Spleenslitta]

Roland, on 26 May 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

But Spleen, the reality is that you're never really going to be choosing between an ERPPC and an AC/2. Those two weapons are never going to occupy the same location on a battlemech.

That's true but since the AC2 only needs one ballistic crit slot to fit it should be a viable weapon. Most mechs have at least one such slot. Just one at least.
But how many will even concider the AC 2? Very few indeed...i can see your points Roland and they are good ones, but the amount of players still indicates that the AC 2 and the SRM 2 are useless for them.

That's a flaw in the game whether you like it or not... Not being hostile here...just stating my opinion.

[Spleenslitta]

Stormeris, on 26 May 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

good point xD i sometimes write without putting any thought into it, although SRM-2 weight only 1 ton doesnt it?

Well yes it does weigh only 1 ton but ammo has to be added and you probably want a CASE. That's 2.5 tons in IS equipment and three total crit spaces.
Opposing it is a Medium Laser weighing only 0.5 tons and with slightly better damage, easier aim, no ammo explosions, only one crit space.
True it heats up slightly more but add a heatsink and that makes it far superior.

[Spleenslitta]

Roland, on 26 May 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Well, in MW4, the CSTRK4's were actually the best short range missile, although lots of folks mistakenly thought the CSTRK6's were what you wanted to use.

Due to the way knock-down mechanics worked, if you boated up a bunch of CSTRK4's, you could generate immense knock down power. I used to run an Arctic Wolf carrying a boatload of them, and could routinely knock down any other mech in the game, including assaults. We'd often run one of them in a lance, who was tasked solely with knocking down the entire enemy team over and over again.

Looking at the paper stats, you'd never have suspected the CSTRK4 was so good, but since it generated its force in two subsequent hits, you'd always get a first knock which would push the target almost to the edge of its balance, and then the second hit would come in and push them over.

All I'm saying is, don't give up on weapons based purely on what the stats say.

Point taken. But did you ever see anyone use the SRM 2? Again just making an observation. Not being hostile.
Sorry i just look at my posts and i appear like some kind of verbalic wild beast here.

[Rustic Dude]

I remember having a Large Pulse Laser/Clan UAC 2 Rifleman in MW4 (mektek) that was a fairly potent support mech. It can generate a boatload of knock, and you can make those 100 tonners feel like if they're inside a washing machine.

I suppose the AC/2 can be useful if it has some further use or capabilities than damage.

Edited by Rustic Dude, 26 May 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[Roland]

I'm not sensing any hostility, don't worry,
I don't think most folks used the SRM2's. SRM's in general weren't used that much in MW4, except in puretech leagues, mainly due to their lack of lockon. However, some folks did use the SRM's on hillarious SRM boats which would obliterate a mech that wasn't really paying attention. A guy named MOK used to run an SRM Fafnir which was funny.

But you're right, some weapons are likely to be at the bottom of the usage stats. I suspect it's almost guaranteed, just based on the variety of weapons. They can't always all be winners.

[Squigles]

Since this game, by virtue of being real time, has weapon RoF's, we can't say what weapons will or will not be great. If you go by the only TT rules that have a rate of fire statistic for weapons (Solaris), then the AC/2 fires 3 times for every shot from say, a gauss rifle. That brings the damage for an AC/2 to 6 points for 7 tons (gun + ammo), vs a Gauss doing 15 points for 16 tons (Gun + ammo), the difference being that you have to hold the AC/2 on target for a much longer time then the gauss, and the AC/2 has a better range.

[TheMagician]

SRM2s weren't very good because if the other team had AMS they became useless. SRM4s didn't suffer this same problem. SRM4s were generally the better way to go since they only took up one slot, thus instead of an SRM6 you could have an 'SRM8'.

As for AC/2s, in MW4 they were most useful in Mercs and NBT:Hardcore. You could CUAC2 boat a thor and do effective damage. Part of the effectiveness was that they were a clan ballistic that went 1000m. The IS UAC2 was rarely used, as light gauss or HVACs were a better option. Unless the AC/2 delivers a bit of knock, it probably won't be too useful in this game.

[Spleenslitta]

Rustic Dude, on 26 May 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I remember having a Large Pulse Laser/Clan UAC 2 Rifleman in MW4 (mektek) that was a fairly potent support mech. It can generate a boatload of knock, and you can make those 100 tonners feel like if they're inside a washing machine.

I suppose the AC/2 can be useful if it has some further use or capabilities than damage.

That sounds reassuring. The only possible way to make it more usefull without breaking canon would be to make it's firerate good enough to cause a respectable amount of damage per sec.

Roland, on 26 May 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

I'm not sensing any hostility, don't worry,
I don't think most folks used the SRM2's. SRM's in general weren't used that much in MW4, except in puretech leagues, mainly due to their lack of lockon. However, some folks did use the SRM's on hillarious SRM boats which would obliterate a mech that wasn't really paying attention. A guy named MOK used to run an SRM Fafnir which was funny.

But you're right, some weapons are likely to be at the bottom of the usage stats. I suspect it's almost guaranteed, just based on the variety of weapons. They can't always all be winners.

True they can't all be winners. Let's just hope they are at least viable weapons if nothing else. That's all i ask. They just need to be viable.
If the SRM 2's are never used by anyone something is seriously wrong though.

[Spleenslitta]

Squigles, on 26 May 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Since this game, by virtue of being real time, has weapon RoF's, we can't say what weapons will or will not be great. If you go by the only TT rules that have a rate of fire statistic for weapons (Solaris), then the AC/2 fires 3 times for every shot from say, a gauss rifle. That brings the damage for an AC/2 to 6 points for 7 tons (gun + ammo), vs a Gauss doing 15 points for 16 tons (Gun + ammo), the difference being that you have to hold the AC/2 on target for a much longer time then the gauss, and the AC/2 has a better range.

Good point against the gauss and the ER PPC makes more heat. Ohh i almost forgot...the AC/2 can use special ammo. Gonna take a look at sarna to see what's available.

The SRM 2 is still a deadend it seems...oh well. At least my worries for the AC/2 is almost over.

[That Guy]

what about the LRM 5? its another one of the forgotten low end weapons

perhaps the SRM2 and LRM 5 could have more accurate missiles (less spread) as opposed to their larger cousins