43 replies to this topic

[Krazny Ivan]

I started playing this game because I was informed it was going to be MORE like "Battletech" than all the previous incarnations of the "MechWarrior" games. My number one problem is that penalties involving heat to movement and targeting do not exist in this game. Those penalties in "Battletech" were that game's PRIMARY balancing factor, it was responsible for the Battlemech's design philosophy and mixture of weaponry in design. It made faster mechs fight as scirmishers and not as front-line combat roles. The current lack of targeting and movement penalties due to high heat unbalances the game, where the only real problem is over-heat shutdown currently. With the current mechanics in this game, everyone on a high-end machines enjoy the game with their big-screen monitors and souped-up video cards. Those of us on average performance machines get chewed up by them playing rough shod over us. Current game play is nothing like the orignal game of "Battletech". If they fix the heat balance/penalties for movement and targeting, and slow down the firing rate of weapons to more reasonable levels, then game play would be more fair and enjoyable. Other issues involve LRM targeting and ECM abilites over affecting the impact of game play without supporting systems and overbalancing.
Thank you for your time in viewing this posting and please urge the designers to rethink these areas of game play and development!

[M4rtyr]

Think talking about the machines people are playing on might get some bad responses on this.

But in general you are correct, with the only heat penalty being shutdown a major mechanic to the game is missing.

But considering the devs don't have terrain effect speed either they are still working on such things or they just don't know how to do it, which seems odd honestly. But I would think the targeting penalty would be relatively easy. Make it a random deviation from the convergence for direct fire weapons, missles get a larger spread. But certainly ammo explostions would be a BIG factor. Why they don't have at least the ammo implemented I don't understand, it would be just as easy as the shutdown.

Actually if there is a specific reason the devs havn't done this I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it. Otherwise I'm assuming they just don't know how yet. Which is fine but know they wouldn't admit it.

[Khobai]

No thanks. Heat is already punitive enough in MWO considering that weapons not only fire three times faster but double heatsinks arn't even really double.

Unless the entire heat system was redone from the ground up I can't see graduated penalties being added in.

[M4rtyr]

Khobai, on 16 March 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

No thanks. Heat is already punitive enough in MWO considering that weapons not only fire three times faster but double heatsinks arn't even really double.

Unless the entire heat system was redone from the ground up I can't see graduated penalties being added in.

Well yeah, thats why they need to do the doubles right and fix the heat buildup. Both easy fixes there is just some reason they are avoiding the heat scale and I'd really really love to know what it is.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 16 March 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

No thanks. Heat is already punitive enough in MWO considering that weapons not only fire three times faster but double heatsinks arn't even really double.

Unless the entire heat system was redone from the ground up I can't see graduated penalties being added in.

The reason to avoid a fully functional heat scale is that they have screwed up the heat generation and heat dissipation system of the game. If they can fix the latter,they can introduce the former. If they can't, better hope they never get to the former.

Unfortunately, I am not optimistic they can or want to do anything about it. They don't see the problem, and don't agree with the players that perceive this as an issue. I don't know what can change that.
Mathematical analysis of their game didn't do it, countless of threads since Closed Beta didn't do it. Maybe all the interested players should get together and say we'll be willing to pay 120 $ each for a real rework of the mechanics? A "Game Balance Kickstarter"...

[M4rtyr]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 March 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

The reason to avoid a fully functional heat scale is that they have screwed up the heat generation and heat dissipation system of the game. If they can fix the latter,they can introduce the former. If they can't, better hope they never get to the former.

Unfortunately, I am not optimistic they can or want to do anything about it. They don't see the problem, and don't agree with the players that perceive this as an issue. I don't know what can change that.
Mathematical analysis of their game didn't do it, countless of threads since Closed Beta didn't do it. Maybe all the interested players should get together and say we'll be willing to pay 120 $ each for a real rework of the mechanics? A "Game Balance Kickstarter"...

*shrug* I question that the Devs would be THAT stupid to think there isn't anything wrong with how they;ve done the heat system. It's complete nonsense so that would take serious balls.

But regardless. I've not given them a cent, so if they don't fix it I get bored with them not fixing things and leave the game (like many otehrs) if they do fix it and other things then I'll actually pay for more things in the game (as would others) and they make money. but then this wouldn't be the first game or group of devs (or maybe publishers) that do stupid **** and think they are right so never know.

Edited by M4rtyr, 16 March 2013 - 02:29 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

*shrug* I question that the Devs would be THAT stupid to think there isn't anything wrong with how they;ve done the heat system. It's complete nonsense so that would take serious balls.

Are you new here? I want that innocence back.

Quote

But regardless. I've not given them a cent, so if they don't fix it I get bored with them not fixing things and leave the game (like many otehrs) if they do fix it and other things then I'll actually pay for more things in the game (as would others) and they make money. but then this wouldn't be the first game or group of devs (or maybe publishers) that do stupid **** and think they are right so never know.

It's the logical thing to do as a player, and if happens a lot, things might change. But I worry when this happens, it is already too late, because how do you get the players back that left because they found the game imbalanced and the heat system bad?

But maybe wereally are the minority. Man, there have been so many people saying "heat is fine" "LOL learn to manage your heat!" "LOL table top" ... I don't know. I am confident the system could be a lot better balanced and more interesting to play than it is.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 March 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[M4rtyr]

People likely are saying heat is fine because its easy mode. just have to worry about a shutdown which isn't nearly as bad as a ammo explosion.

But no, i'm not -that- innocent. But I didn't play during closed beta so don't know what devs have said about heat. I assumed they were just slow implementing the rest of the scale.

[MustrumRidcully]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

People likely are saying heat is fine because its easy mode. just have to worry about a shutdown which isn't nearly as bad as a ammo explosion.

But no, i'm not -that- innocent. But I didn't play during closed beta so don't know what devs have said about heat. I assumed they were just slow implementing the rest of the scale.

Back in CB, we had only single heat sinks. And the imbalances where even more apparent than. You know they recently changed the PPC's heat down from 9 to 8? That the PPC was too hot was already discussed back then. Or that the MG is useless. That trial mechs are too hot and easily will turn off new players due to their poor performanc and that fixing the heat system could fix trial mechs has been pointed out for a long time.
That convergence would be an issue was already discussed back then.

When talking about the full heat scale, it boils down (no pun intended to) a "not planned for now" since forever.
When talking about convergence it's "everything is fine" even if we point out that weapons that require lead time are screwed by it...

They are extremely slow in making any balance change, and some things are in my opinion so obvious if you analyze the problem that I really don't know why. I can understand being careful, but they must have some form of balance model. Or they should have. But it feels more as if "balancing" the game is at the level that it used to be say, in the times of RPGs like AD&D or table top games like ... Battletech. Except I believe that Battletech was better balanced with 3025 Tech than MW:O ever was.

[M4rtyr]

Yeah i think BTech was exceptionally well balanced prior to 3055 (excluding Clan vs IS).

Thats why I was expecting PGI to use that balance, but there are a number of thing they are throwing out the window very obviously. Like the rate of fire but not considering the effect that increase has on damage or heat. So then everything over heats and so much damage is done kills take 6 seconds.. "oops, lets double armor".

I don't know, to me if you triple rate of fire you drop damage and heat by an equal ratio. But then i also learned that heat sinks just increase max heat storage don't disipate the heat quicker. So they've not used anything about the heat system except how much heat weapons generate and so its all fouled up.

It's a shame its a fun game but I'm not expecting to see things get better based on whats on the books already.

[kiltymonroe]

If you scale the TT heat effects table to the MW:O heat scale, using 30 TT heat as 100% MW:O heat (the auto shutdown point in both), you get:

16.2 kph speed reduction at just ~17% heat
Some sort of aiming interference at ~27% heat, increases from here
32.4 kph speed reduction at ~33% heat
1/12 chance of automatic shutdown every 10 sec at ~47% heat, increases from here
48.6 kph speed reduction at 50% heat. Many assaults completely stationary at this point.
1/12 chance of ammo explosion every 10 sec at ~63%
64.8 kph speed reduction at ~67% heat. All assaults and most heavies can't move at all.
5/18 chance of ammo explosion every 10 sec at ~77%
81 kph speed reduction at ~83% heat. Only lights and fast mediums can even move.
21/36 chance of ammo explosion every 10 sec at ~93%

These are massive penalties for shooting just about any weapons at all. This game would become Gausswarrior:Online in very short order.

THIS IS WHAT GROGNARDS THINK MAKES FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY.

THIS IS WHAT GROGNARDS THINK MAKES FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY.

THIS IS WHAT GROGNARDS THINK MAKES FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY.

[Khobai]

Right... in order to make that work you would have to reduce weapon cooldown, increase heat capacity, decrease dissipation... basically make the heat generation and dissipation less spikey and more gradual. It would require a COMPLETE revamp of the heat system and weapon balance.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Targetloc]

Khobai, on 16 March 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

No thanks. Heat is already punitive enough in MWO considering that weapons not only fire three times faster but double heatsinks arn't even really double.

Unless the entire heat system was redone from the ground up I can't see graduated penalties being added in.

I don't think heat is currently punitive at all.

With the exception of 6x PPC Stalkers, since DHS has come in almost no one runs a build that can't core an equal weight mech before heat capping.

You do end up managing your heat somewhat because there are multiple targets on the field and not everyone hits the CT every single time, but it's a pretty trivial mechanic right now.

The game is still pretty fun to play, but I feel like they could do a lot more with heat to add more of a mech sim feel to this mech shooter.

[MustrumRidcully]

kiltymonroe, on 16 March 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

If you scale the TT heat effects table to the MW:O heat scale, using 30 TT heat as 100% MW:O heat (the auto shutdown point in both), you get:

16.2 kph speed reduction at just ~17% heat
Some sort of aiming interference at ~27% heat, increases from here
32.4 kph speed reduction at ~33% heat
1/12 chance of automatic shutdown every 10 sec at ~47% heat, increases from here
48.6 kph speed reduction at 50% heat. Many assaults completely stationary at this point.
1/12 chance of ammo explosion every 10 sec at ~63%
64.8 kph speed reduction at ~67% heat. All assaults and most heavies can't move at all.
5/18 chance of ammo explosion every 10 sec at ~77%
81 kph speed reduction at ~83% heat. Only lights and fast mediums can even move.
21/36 chance of ammo explosion every 10 sec at ~93%

These are massive penalties for shooting just about any weapons at all. This game would become Gausswarrior:Online in very short order.

THIS IS WHAT GROGNARDS THINK MAKES FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY.

THIS IS WHAT GROGNARDS THINK MAKES FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY.

THIS IS WHAT GROGNARDS THINK MAKES FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY.

Well, but to get an Awesome 8Q to about 4 heat, you would need about 20 seconds of firing in the table top.

Of course, real time "complicates" things. But let's assume they had made PPCs fire every 3 seconds for 3 damage and 3 heat, and no double armour. After one salvo you're at 9 heat, suffering a 16.2 kp/h speed reduction and an aiming penalty. But after 3 seconds, you will have dissipated 8.4 heat, meaning your speed and aiming penalties are already long gone by the time you shoot again. Your heat level grows much slower than in MW:O now, so you can actually afford the heat penalties.

[Byk]

I disagree with you, OP, about slowing down weapon's rate of fire. I like where everything is at now. Although the PPC seems to recharge a bit too fast imo. Anyway, I definitely like the idea of heat penalties to targeting and movement. It would be neat to see your HUD flicker and maybe shake a little if you sit at 90% heat or something. Maybe at that point it even reduces your mech speed by 10 kph. Nothing too dramatic, and it would fix itself as soon as your heat cooled down. But it would be cool to have some sort of penalty for pushing your heat too high but not quite reaching the shut down point.

[Targetloc]

Khobai, on 16 March 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Right... in order to make that work you would have to reduce weapon cooldown, increase heat capacity, decrease dissipation... basically make the heat generation and dissipation less spikey and more gradual. It would require a COMPLETE revamp of the heat system and weapon balance.

Well, the point of the thread is to discuss whether heat needs a revamp.

I don't think they would need to reduce weapon heat, or decrease dissipation. They should decrease heat capacity to make constant alphas more punitive. But what they need to do is differentiate between Coolant System heat and Excess Heat.

Your Heatsinks are insulated against the internals of the mech and are designed to shunt heat outside the mech. But high heat levels heat will still bleed through that insulation into the internals.

They can keep the current weapon heats and spiky heat mechanics, but the new heat penalty mechanics would be part of a system that gradually builds heat, or loses it, based on how high your heat bar is.

(Please excuse my complete lack of shop skills)

When heatsink system heat is low, core shows blue. No heat in internals.


As heatsink system heat rises, core heat square quickly turns yellow.


Heat gradually bleeds out into adjacent sections as a visual representation of excess heat building in the mech's internal systems.


Pilot continues to run mech at 50% heat. Movement and aiming penalties start to take effect as
arm and leg sections fill. Maybe they pulse or flash when a penalty kicks in.


When coolant heat drops back down, core square turns blue to represent that excess internal heat is now bleeding off. Heat slowly recedes from extremities and penalties go away.
(Note: this doesn't need to be at ZERO on the heat bar, just lower than a threshhold, like 30%)


Running near max heat capacity turns core red. Heat very quickly spreads to internal systems. Pegging the heat bar and continuing to fire fills system heat EXTREMELY quickly. Exponentially faster.


Heat penalties increase as internals become more and more red, until system failure.



This way, the heat spike of 5 medium lasers will cause your internal heat to rise a bit, but not instantly incur a penalty. Firing 6x PPC's would always be a serious consideration because it would almost immediately cause penalties that would take a while to bleed off. But it's less punishing if you fire 3 and then 3.

Mechs that don't have huge spiky heat, but run with a low amount of heatsinks would still need to manage their heat by not riding the top of the bar all the time.

It adds another layer of complexity, and tactical considerations in longer fights.


We can also change how people perceive their heat capacity a bit with a subtle change to the heat bar.


Yellow exclamation is now 100% heat capacity. It's determined by the number of heatsinks you have (but always halfway up the bar)

Above the yellow mark your heatsinks are working above their optimal heat capacity.
Heat begins to bleed much faster into your internals, raising the rate you'll incur penalties, and preventing your internal heat from lowering.

The red exclamation is 200% heatsink capacity. The mech tries to shut down at that point. You can over-ride, but running above that line causes your heat sinks to gradually take component damage, until they start to pop like water balloons.

Edited by Targetloc, 16 March 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[M4rtyr]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 March 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Well, but to get an Awesome 8Q to about 4 heat, you would need about 20 seconds of firing in the table top.

Of course, real time "complicates" things. But let's assume they had made PPCs fire every 3 seconds for 3 damage and 3 heat, and no double armour. After one salvo you're at 9 heat, suffering a 16.2 kp/h speed reduction and an aiming penalty. But after 3 seconds, you will have dissipated 8.4 heat, meaning your speed and aiming penalties are already long gone by the time you shoot again. Your heat level grows much slower than in MW:O now, so you can actually afford the heat penalties.

This is what I would expect as well. It sounds like very little damage sure but people need to understand the differences of the rate of fire and that higher rate of fire is why they needed the double armor. So you do less damage but mechs have half the armor and you still fire just as often. But it includes more complete tactics with a -REAL- heat system instead of just a very boring shutdown if you alpha all the time (ie its extremely easy to avoid heat penalties).

The sad part is would have been very easy to implement but as things are now since the heat isn't really disipated based on heat sinks but just gives you more 'storage' they've likely gone too far in the -wrong- direction. Heat is far to high for how they've done things to make the heat scale work without suffering all the penalties all the time. So there are only two options, a 100% complete overhaul of the heat or we get to enjoy the occational shutdown and nothing more.

Might as well not even have the heat aspect.

[MustrumRidcully]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

This is what I would expect as well. It sounds like very little damage sure but people need to understand the differences of the rate of fire and that higher rate of fire is why they needed the double armor. So you do less damage but mechs have half the armor and you still fire just as often. But it includes more complete tactics with a -REAL- heat system instead of just a very boring shutdown if you alpha all the time (ie its extremely easy to avoid heat penalties).

The sad part is would have been very easy to implement but as things are now since the heat isn't really disipated based on heat sinks but just gives you more 'storage' they've likely gone too far in the -wrong- direction. Heat is far to high for how they've done things to make the heat scale work without suffering all the penalties all the time. So there are only two options, a 100% complete overhaul of the heat or we get to enjoy the occational shutdown and nothing more.

Might as well not even have the heat aspect.

Just one caveeat - it'snot just the rate of fire that was the reason for the double armour. A big factor is also the pure alpha strike potential of some weapons and some mechs if you have convergence and mouse aiming against normal armour. Even fi they had used the table top stats and a fire rate of 1 shot per 10 seconds, a Triple PPC to the Head would be instant-kill for all mechs, and 2 people working together and alpha striking somoene's Center Torso might lead to the same result. THe problem here is that it's the first hit that can do this - that means it's very hard to react to something like that. If people believe poptarting in MW4 was bad, or that 3Ls poptarting is bad, this would be much, much worse.

They definitely needed something to blunt the alpha strike potential. But lowering the damage per shot could have done the same thing, and together with them wanting to give us higher rates of fire than 1 shot per 10 seconds, it would have been a logical thing to do.

[M4rtyr]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

They definitely needed something to blunt the alpha strike potential. But lowering the damage per shot could have done the same thing, and together with them wanting to give us higher rates of fire than 1 shot per 10 seconds, it would have been a logical thing to do.

Exactly... I mean we obviously can't fire only every 10 seconds, the game would be boring. But if you triple the rate of fire but then decrease the heat and damage equally you don't have to double armor and heat would be low enough we could use the heat penalties without liveing constently in them all.

It's a prime example of making a design choice in the wrong direction because it's led to so many other things.

Kills are too fast = double armor
Whine! my missles take too long to kill now = missile damage increase
LRM boats are too strong = ECM foolery

So we're left with annoying ECM, people complaining about boats when its the extreme missile alphas or direct fire weapon pinpoint alphas causing the problem, and high heat that really doesn't even play a real factor in the game anyway.

Sorry most of that wasn't about heat but you can see how everything fits together including the heat.

[Khobai]

The bigger problem was allowing precise aiming. tripling the rate of fire only tripled potential damage. allowing precise aiming increased damage upto five times as much.

example:
chance to hit center torso in tabletop = 20%
chance to hit center torso in mwo = potentially 100%

thats a five-fold increase in damage potential just by changing from random hit locations to aiming.

So we've got triple rate of fire tripling the damage. We've got precise aiming potentially quintupling damage. And all they put on the other side of the equation was double armor. Its no wonder mechs drop dead in seconds.

Aiming/convergence is still the single most unbalanced aspect of MWO.

But yeah certainly triple rate of fire and triple heat doesn't help either. Since they tripled the rate of fire of weapons, they also should've reduced the damage and heat by the inverse to balance it out. Not doing that is the reason why the heat system is so messed up in this game and why none of the stock mechs are effective.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2013 - 02:31 PM.