31 replies to this topic

[MuonNeutrino]

BoyWonder, on 24 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Abridged version: if ELO is working, it should not matter if the que's are merged, in time it would work itself out.

ELO does not take into account whether you're in a group or not. If the queues were merged, ELO would have no compunctions about matching an 8-man against four 2-mans if their ELO scores were compatible. Who do you think would have the advantage in that scenario?

[BoyWonder]

Dr Killinger, on 24 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Me and 1 (sometimes 2) of my mates drop together from time to time. If we were suddenly put against an 8-man team, we'd be annihilated within seconds. I don't think it would work too well.

I think the big decider here is ELO. If it is working and tuned properly, then it should not make a large difference if they are an 8 man, as you would be paired with players of equal skill.

At first glance it would seem like they would still have the advantage of being on comms, but people who play 8's are generally playing in some sort of group and are on comms, so "advantage" is already built into their ELO score. For you to be paired against them, you would be doing as good and arguably a better player as it is harder to obtain the same ELO score soloing.

TOGSolid, on 24 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Theoretically, it's just too bad the ELO is a piece of crap. Besides, while the ELO is taking its damn sweet time trying to figure things out, those 8-mans will be pugstomping the **** out of everything and driving people away. The real fix is to put in a proper BV/weight limit to make eight mans compelling and interesting to play. Right now they're just absolutely awful.

...So you dont want to fix ELO, just throw in BV/Weight and then have pug stomps?
...Interesting idea

[BoyWonder]

MuonNeutrino, on 24 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

ELO does not take into account whether you're in a group or not. If the queues were merged, ELO would have no compunctions about matching an 8-man against four 2-mans if their ELO scores were compatible. Who do you think would have the advantage in that scenario?

I think my above post is one way of looking at it, let me know if you disagree

[TOGSolid]

Quote

...So you dont want to fix ELO, just throw in BV/Weight and then have pug stomps?
...Interesting idea

8 mans should stay segregated from everyone else. Even a team of mediocre players on comms will role the **** out of a non-8 man team. Pug/4 mans should operate under a fixed up ELO while 8-mans operate under a BV/weight limit system.

[BoyWonder]

TOGSolid, on 24 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

8 mans should stay segregated from everyone else. Even a team of mediocre players on comms will role the **** out of a non-8 man team. Pug/4 mans should operate under a fixed up ELO while 8-mans operate under a BV/weight limit system.

I love absolutes...

Before the split in que's, my 3-4 man has won against 8 man premades... so yeah..

I dont really see your logic here and you have yet to explain it.

[TOGSolid]

The logic is that combining a weight or BV limiter with the ELO system would be a gigantic ***********.  We don't have the playerbase to allow for all those permutations and it would lead to people sitting around looking for matches for an eternity.  To keep 8 mans interesting they should just operate on their own with the ELO stripped and a BV or weight limit system in place instead.  If, maybe one day, this game somehow manages to get a big enough playerbase then sure, we could roll everyone together into one big, happy family but that day is a long way away.

Edited by TOGSolid, 24 March 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[BoyWonder]

*I agree about the small player base, which is why I am not too big of a fan for euro servers where you cant switch / 1st and 3d perspective que's etc.

*I didnt mention a BV/ELO combo, that was you and I agree that it could take awhile, especially for 8 mans.

*Not sure how BV/weight only would make 8 mans interesting. Interesting maps are equal skilled teams going at it, and I think ELO needs tuning in regards to pilot chassis selection.

[Glythe]

VoltarDark, on 24 March 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Everyone is doing sync drops, so the 8 men queue is rather deserted leading us doing more sync drops.

Synch drops are something of an exploit... you should be ashamed.

I think we just need to have a Lance mode. You and 3 allies go out and play against 4 enemies on a map with 1 central base to capture. Institute tonnage limits so you have to bring 4 mechs under something like 250 tons. Problem solved!

[TOGSolid]

Quote

*Not sure how BV/weight only would make 8 mans interesting. Interesting maps are equal skilled teams going at it, and I think ELO needs tuning in regards to pilot chassis selection.

Because right now matches run very heavily with teams loading up on a lot of similar builds. There's very little variety out there and the meta is really stagnant. By employing some sort of limit it makes people have to think much harder, field a much wider variety of builds, and thusly allows opens up the strategic and tactical nature of the game much more. The meta will suddenly be placed into a very entertaining state of flux as people work to counter each other. Having to work within the confines of a system is what allows for entertaining play. Right now there are no real confines to what you can field which really hampers the draw of eight man combat.

I'm not too concerned with eight man teams not matching up skill wise since if you're running an eight man then you're generally not looking for a helping hand anymore. The mentality changes from just goofing off to wanting to really compete and get better at this game and the only way you do that is by facing people better than you and learning.

Quote

*I didnt mention a BV/ELO combo, that was you and I agree that it could take awhile, especially for 8 mans.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to infer you had meant that. My primary concern is in wanting 8 man competitive play to be so much more than the shitshow it currently is. It has a limited player base because it's just not that fun right now. Fixing that first is much more important than combining the queues. The catch is then you have to merge whatever system the 8 mans are operating under in with whatever the PUGs/4 mans are up to.

Honestly though, I'd rather everything ran under a BV/weight limit system and that the ELO system was just chucked out the window, but I'm kinda old school in that regard. Playing old school DM games made you harden the **** up fast since there was no gentle ELO cushioning like there is these days.

Edited by TOGSolid, 24 March 2013 - 11:45 AM.

[krash27]

From what alot of organized teams are saying is they get rolled in 8 mans vs the "pro gamer" crowd. Its much more fun, for them and them alone, to sync drop 4+ people into the solo/pug games and stomp pugs. /shrug PGI allows this exploit/mechanic in game, they will not do anythin about it. The only thing you can do is play or not play.

As far as segregating ques between the organized teams and sol/pug droppers goes, yes it will be bad. No worse than the 3PV-1PV segregation. Probably not as bad as alot of people will switch to 3PV as it will be easier.

I think a proper ELO and Match Maker needs to be implemented first and foremost. Once those are balanced, examine where to go from there.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

From what alot of organized teams are saying is they get rolled in 8 mans vs the "pro gamer" crowd.

Right now there is basically only one flavor of proper team out there and anyone not running that setup gets **** on which is really the biggest problem.

[VoltarDark]

Emerging both queues and adding some weight balancing would help a lot giving us better matchs.