19 replies to this topic

[Major Tom]

I realize that in an MMO you need a carrot-stick approach to encourage grinding, but usually there is some semblence of balance to ensure fairness and parity for PvP. The battletech board game attempt to accomplish this via mech tonage and battle value (BV), however MWO has neither of these mechanisms for balance. This may not be as much of an issue with the "Role Warfare" and when everyone is at the same tech level, but I can forsee some major imbalances when some players have tech level 2 equipment:
Endosteel = 1 to 5 free tons
Ferrofiberous = .5 to 2 free tons
Double heat sinks = 10 - 24 free tons (15 tons savings for 30 heat sinks)
XL engines = 2.5 to 20.5 free tons (commando to banshee)

And don't get me started on the problems clan technology will generate. How may players will want to come back when they launch their first mission in their shiny new Centurian only to be obliterated by offscreen weapons fire in seconds.
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I am sure the devs have some plan in mind to cope with power-creep issue since they specifically chose 2049 as the start point, but I have to wonder how they will handle the disparity of power level. Will it by like a tradition MMO with "starter" zones were you slowly work you way out to more advanced/dangerous areas

[ManDaisy]

Double heat sinks dont worry me. A lot of people don't realize that single heat sinks are best in zombies because they can take the crit in place of your weapons. With Double heat sinks you don't have as much cannon fodder. On top of endo and ferro for re rolling criticals this leaves weapons with an even greater chance of being crit hit once the armor is breached. As long as they make critical hit chance high, things will remain balanced.

They could also introduce heat barrier... while having more heat sink ability will cool you faster, you are only able to generate so much heat at time before going boom. A mech with 10 medium laser will still generate 30 instant heat and shut down despite having 30 heat sinking ability.

Edited by ManDaisy, 01 June 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[SyberSmoke]

I am not seeing the issues that you are worried about. If you look at the MechLab video it is very clear that Tonnage as well as hard points and Critical slots all play a role in balancing out a mech. Most of the items that you have listed all take up additional critical slots, slots that could be free due to hard points being filled...but at the same time those are slots that may be needed for weapons.

They have defined three clear ways to limit how powerful any one mech can be. so while people may install endo and ferro and god knows what else...it may hinder their load outs because of critical slots. It is not all about tonnage...never has been in BattleTech.

[Major Tom]

I understand what you are saying, but there is no differnce in critial chance between having Endosteel and not having Endosteel (well I guess maybe you more weapons that can be hit). As for double heat sinks, I think this is the biggest game changer, every mech with double heat sinks litterally gets 10 free tons. and double heat sinks take 3 critical slots so they make excelent padding for ammo locations.
"concerned about that Hunchback left torso ammo, don't sweat it, just pad that space with double heatsinks and you chance for an ammo explosion dropped from 100% to 18%"

Edited by Major Tom, 01 June 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[ManDaisy]

no not really. 14 locations on torso. 3 tons ammo 3 double heat sinks. 3 tons ammo, 11 single heat sinks.

When a destroyed item is hit I believe you reroll.

first hit Double ... 2/3 heat sinks remaining
first hit single ... 10/11 heat sinks remaining.

[SyberSmoke]

That is assuming that the game will work in the same manner as the book. This is after all a video game...allot of the rules in books have to be fine tuned and streamlined. Computers are wonderful calculators so the developers could fine tune the rules, making them far more complex and effective against stated issues.

The ammo explosion you mention could pad you from internal damage...sure. But at the same time the entire system could also decimate those sinks, damage other adjacent areas and more. What was once streamlined in the name of expedience no longer needs to be. And I would bet a good sum of money that they have already seen this eventuality and have been looking to correct it.

[Kartr]

ManDaisy, on 01 June 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

no not really. 14 locations on torso. 3 tons ammo 3 double heat sinks. 3 tons ammo, 11 single heat sinks.

When a destroyed item is hit I believe you reroll.

first hit Double ... 2/3 heat sinks remaining
first hit single ... 10/11 heat sinks remaining.

Actually I believe you only re-roll if that critical location has already been hit. So a double heat sink takes up three critical locations, that means while it will be knocked out on the first hit it takes, it can still take two more hits. Example if the DHS is in critical slots 4-5-6 and your crit hits slot 4 the DHS is knocked out, if you take another crit hit and it lands on 4 you re-roll and it lands on 6, then 6 is destroyed, etc.

As for balancing the Clans, I fully expect that we'll be fighting 10v12 at the very least, if not 5v12. Plus I doubt Clans will get access to some of the commander skills like call for arty/air and they might not get access to the higher levels of targeting data since they don't believe in teamwork. Plus there's the whole Zellbrigen thing which can be used to help balance things out. Imagine you're fighting Clan 'Mechs and one of them tags you with weapons fire, now until he's destroyed no other Clan 'Mech can target you. These things will help balance the huge tech advantage the Clans have.

Edited by Kartr, 01 June 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Sassori]

The only way to deal with power creep is to make it equally available.

Really, that's all there is to it.

Also, while Level 2 tech (Lostech) is a significant upgrade it also has side effects (XL Engines make side torso death a possibility, Endo Steel eats up 14 crit spaces, so does ferro fibrous, Double Heat Sinks take 3 crits instead of 1 etc etc). Does it make a better mech? In ways, yes. It's not an impossible lead at all.

At least it wouldn't be if armor and internal structure weren't doubled making a single ppc hit still threatening...

[SyberSmoke]

Speaking as a game designer...I do not believe we will have access to clan tech for a while. Even though the invasion will occur soon, their tech is to much in advance for immediate player access. Bets are any clan tech will be a very expensive and rare item to buy and clan aligned players will probably not happen until such time that the majority of players have access to weapons, systems, and so on that are of equal capability.

Other wise the simple fact is you will get a minority of players in the IS while the majority do a mass migration to the clans because of their superior capabilities.

Edited by SyberSmoke, 01 June 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Sassori]

Level 1 is 3025 tech. Level 2 is Clan Tech, it's also IS Lostech. Level 3 is experimental tech for both.

They've already shown in screen shots Inner Sphere Lostech (XL Engines, UAC-5, etc) as for Clan Tech... that's just a tragedy waiting to happen.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I can't see many people running much level1 tech an hour after first loading in and they've worked out how the game plays. Unless it costs a lot in real money, most people will reckon it's worth it. I would have been perfectly happy with a much more restricted MechLab, but I'm in a minority and the Devs obviously don't agree. Once it's there then there is little choice but to use it. Having hardpoints, canon crit and weight limitations has made some restrictions. JJs can only be fitted to models that have them. We don't yet know what they are doing with ES & FF.
Crits are not a problem in smaller mechs as you usually run out of weight first.

[SyberSmoke]

If the posts from the developers are any guide. lvl 1 will be common because of cost and availability. LvL 2 will require you to have a significant relationship with a house to get access to this rarer tech. Other wise there would be little need for the house reputation system. This means that people will be using lvl 1 for allot longer as they get their reps up. But even recovered Star League era technology will be balanced against lvl 1 simply because it has to in a competitive game of this nature.

If my old core rules are still valid...the difference is marginal. Lets take a normal AC/10 and compare it to an IS LBX/10. They both have the same range and damage. The LBX is better in heat (2 pts over 3 pts), Tonnage (11 tons vs 12 tons), and Criticals needed (6 vs 7). The one real and significant advantage the LBX/10 has is that it can fire both Solid shell and cluster munitions. In the end these differences are marginal and do not horribly destabilize things.

The same applies to most other advanced technology, the only real difference is that the mech using a few of these systems may get one more weapon...another heat sink...or may be a couple tons of extra armor. An advantage...sure, but not an insurmountable one to a skilled player.

Edited by SyberSmoke, 01 June 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[Yeach]

I agree.
Level 2 tech on mechs will quickly overpower Level 1 mechs.
Hopefully some type of Battle Value will keep the battlefield balanced.

[Divine Retribution]

I think cost can balance usage. For instance losing with level 1 tech, you receive enough C-bills for repairs and a little profit. Losing a battle with level 2 tech is also a financial loss. You won't make enough to cover repairs. So you build up cash reserves using level 1 tech and only use rare tech for important battles, or for a few battles when you have enough cash to cover potential losses. That way most battles will mainly include standard equipment, with a little level 2 tech here and there.

[PANZERBUNNY]

I don'tknow why people are in such a rush for double heat sinks.

There always was a certain nobility to playing 3025 era and mechs with single heat sinks.

You can't pack as much weaponry. Every shot counts. Larger bore weapons are restricted.

We'll eventually get double sinks when the Clans arrive to change the way the game plays. Keep things fresh.

[Mavek]

XL engines, EndoSteel, FerroFibrous, and Double Heat Sinks have always been balanced by cost and the space they take in a mech. Using the right mix of these can improve the performance of a mech, but since everyone will have access to them, I don't see how they can cause a problem.

I would like to see some kind of bidding system that takes into account either the cost or the battle value that each side is allowed to take into a battle. These are the tried and true ways of selecting units for a balanced and fun fight in CBT, and should translate well here, also. It is the only way I see to balance out Clan tech when it arrives.

But then, I dont know how this game is going to play out, and maybe the devs have found a genious way to solve these issues.

Until then, aim for the side torsos of anyone you suspect of using an XL engine, and do your best to level up so you can trick out your mech with an ES structure to buy some more armor or a weapon upgrade...

[Major Bill Curtis]

PANZERBUNNY, on 01 June 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

I don'tknow why people are in such a rush for double heat sinks.

There always was a certain nobility to playing 3025 era and mechs with single heat sinks.

You can't pack as much weaponry. Every shot counts. Larger bore weapons are restricted.

We'll eventually get double sinks when the Clans arrive to change the way the game plays. Keep things fresh.

Double heat sinks predate the Clan invasion, both in rediscovery and in application. There are quite a few (something like a dozen or more models) stock 'mechs in production in 3049 that use double heat sinks.

The Gray Death Memory Core was discovered 21 years before the game date; working prototypes of all of the technology the developers have mentioned were built by 3035, and several 'mechs built throughout the '40s utilized this technology. Among the most popular are double heat sinks. Sure there are plenty of 3025 'mechs still around (they're still around in the '70s too), but double heat sinks aren't exactly "Clan Magic."

[Kanatta Jing]

The Centurion CN9-D isn't all that much better then the Centurion CN9-A. It's better in that it runs as fast as a Raven and the weapons better in certain situations (increased accuracy for the LRMs in direct fire and the range bonus of the LBX/10), but it also costs more in replacement parts.

Better but not exactly twice as good better.

Can a CN9-D beat a CN9-A more often then it loses? Is it more useful in some situations?

Sure.

Can one CN9-D gun down two CN9-As?

If he did, he'd have the right to brag about it.

[Major Bill Curtis]

Kanatta Jing, on 01 June 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

The Centurion CN9-D isn't all that much better then the Centurion CN9-A. It's better in that it runs as fast as a Raven and the weapons better in certain situations (increased accuracy for the LRMs in direct fire and the range bonus of the LBX/10), but it also costs more in replacement parts.

Better but not exactly twice as good better.

Can a CN9-D beat a CN9-A more often then it loses? Is it more useful in some situations?

Sure.

Can one CN9-D gun down two CN9-As?

If he did, he'd have the right to brag about it.

Agreed. The D-model has the same armor as the A, the same lasers, its AC/10 is upgraded to an LB-X 10 (big deal); its LRM 10 has an Artemis IV system on it . . . the biggest difference is that the D-model, first deployed in 3049, travels at a brisk 97 kph, as compared to the A-model's 64 kph.

There's also an AL-model that is a century old, however, which sports an extra ton of armor, a large laser in place of the ammo dependent AC, and some extra heat sinks. It'll certainly give the quicker D-model a run for its money . . .

Advantage to the D-model, of course (they managed not to make the 'mech worse in its 3049 iteration), but hardly any sort of guarantee, especially in the mixed environment of a company-level engagement.

[Zack Delphirian]

I agree with Kanatta Jing, although better tech gives you a (little) edge on the battlefield, it's certainly not "WoT-like" kinda over-powered advantage. And thankfully so ! And that's not even mentioning the drawbacks of such tech : the critical hits. You can debate on the possibility that a double heat sink might "absorb" some of the critical hits, but in the meantime, you're still out one double-HS, which is not as bad as losing your precious PPC, but it's easy to loose a couple more DHS and the result is pretty much the same...Well maybe not, but you get the point .

As for the weapons. Well I'll be more worried about a great mechwarrior piloting a low-tech mech that the opposite !

And frankly, I'm not holding my breath waiting for Clan Tech...Sure it would be nice to shoot stuff from inside a Mad Cat, a Mad Dog or a behemoth, but I'm really worried about balancing issues. Let's give enough time to PGI to make 3049 a great year, balance everything out, make great maps . And then, and only then give us the Clan Invasion, maybe.