Jump to content

This Is Not A Beta


162 replies to this topic

#1 Aesthetech

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 92 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:35 AM

This is something I feel that the game is long due to get past. It is not a Beta. It has not been a Beta for months. The faster the devs get past arbitrarily using this terminology and be more honest with the state of the game, the better.

What is Beta about MWO? The fact that it's an incomplete game with a lot of missing features and a lot of bugs? Sorry, that doesn't make something a beta. I suppose EA could just start calling half their released titles betas. Stardock could have called Elemental: War of Magic a beta, and stated that it was still a work in progress and buyers were helping fund the game. Instead of going down that morally shady road, however, the devs in charge came and flat out said it was a colossal fuckup, they were going to try and patch it and move on, and offered varying levels of discounts for players who had purchased or pre-ordered the game.

The reality is that there's no such thing as an Open Beta in a f2p/pay-for-goodies style MMO, if those purchases are non-resettable and non-refundable. The only thing that will differentiate this game from now when the devs decide to start calling it released instead of beta is that it will (hopefully) be less buggy and (hopefully) more features will be complete. You see, this is what most games refer to as "patches."

MWO has been a released game with buyable, non-resettable, non-refundable features since closed beta ended. It is a small-time, niche genre game that was pushed to release by the publisher. Personally, I am willing to accept that. I do not regret my founder's purchase as I viewed it as an investment into future entertainment, and so far, despite an awful state of balance and plenty of bugs when the game was released, I am entertained (are you not entertained?).

However, I am getting tired of "x thing is broken" or "y feature is imbalanced" getting the "oh, it's a beta" response. No, sorry, I'm paying for features. I am actively using those features. There will be no reset of my funds to buy the features I prefer (over what I am helping to "test" now) when the game is in its "complete" state. What I pay for now is what I get now. Let me repeat that I am willing to accept that. It shouldn't be any surprise, though, that this sort of attitude turns a lot of people off and could be taken as insulting.

I have zero issues with purchases being non-refundable. However, if you want to keep calling this thing a beta, you've gotta put some mechanics into place that a paying user would expect from a beta. An ability to reset MC and MC-purchases? Some sort of accumulative discount per purchase that will result in a deposit of MC into users' accounts when the devs arbitrarily decide to stop calling the game a beta? Something along those lines. Alternatively, if you're out to sell the games features "as-is" be honest and stop calling it a beta. I think enough of the playerbase here realizes that you're developing a niche game catered towards them and are willing to buy into that, for all of its flaws, as long as there's more honesty and transparency.

On the other hand, if we're paying for a beta (and expected to pay more for features in the actual 'release'), I suppose we could just start calling this MWO: Vista.

"Beta" is more than just a synonym for "incomplete".


Edit:

In case I wasn't clear enough in the OP, I have no problems with my own investment and may actually put more money into the game (though I don't delude myself into thinking its a beta because someone stuck a blue word on a logo). It's very relevant to my interests and I enjoy it despite its flaws.[/color]

However, I don't drink the kool-aid enough to realize this nonchalant attitude toward the game's issues isn't a turn off for a very large amount of people. A number of other founders on here are some of the worst about that, sadly. Some newer user will have massive issues and get the "it's a beta" reply. No matter what kind of label you put on something, when the average person buys something, they expect a certain amount of results. If they don't get results, they expect good communication on why there are no results. Both are commodities in low supply here at the moment in the eyes of a lot of people.[/color]

As someone who enjoys playing this game, and has no problems investing in this game, I think this attitude is something that needs to be addressed for the good of the game. The "it's a beta" culture is having a negative effect and I'm not a fan.

Edited by Aposiopesis, 26 March 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#2 hammerreborn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 3,063 posts
  • LocationAlexandria, VA

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:36 AM

OH LOOK ITS THIS THREAD AGAIN

Star Citizen and Marvel Heroes are glad you just defined their games as release!

Edit: Oh, and also Banner Saga: factions and Path of Exile

Edited by hammerreborn, 26 March 2013 - 08:38 AM.


#3 Syllogy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,698 posts
  • LocationStrana Mechty

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:37 AM

Actually, it is a Beta.

Here is the Official Milestone Designation of Beta:

The Beta Development Phase generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts to users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and this is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it.

The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, prototype, technical preview (TP), or early access. Some software is kept in perpetual beta—where new features and functionality are continually added to the software without establishing a firm "final" release.

As far as your "Ability to Reset MC" gripe... you knew that purchases were permanent. If you want to test stuff out for free, grind out some C-Bills and purchase it that way instead of with real money.

Edited by Syllogy, 26 March 2013 - 08:41 AM.


#4 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:38 AM

Just as soon as I have CW, Clans and a continuous story to play through, The game will be out of Beta to me. After listening to the PAX Q&A I am even more willing to help foot the bill to develop the game.

#5 SouthernRex

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 374 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:38 AM

TC has never worked in software development, and has absolutely no clue what the **** hes going on about. Next.

#6 MrPenguin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Raider
  • The Raider
  • 1,815 posts
  • LocationSudbury, Ontario

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

Posted Image
I'm pretty sure that blue text says "BETA".
Unless I'm going crazy here...

#7 Tickdoff Tank

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 2,647 posts
  • LocationCharlotte NC

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:40 AM

Posted Image

#8 Megalosauroid

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 352 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:40 AM

It is a beta, the money you pay however is not.

#9 Roadbeer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 8,160 posts
  • LocationWazan, Zion Cluster

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:42 AM



This thread is NEW and EXCITING

This is serious business, I think it needs a poll.

#10 DragonsFire

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 655 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

The option of whether you pay or not rests with you, not with them. You are making the purchase with the knowledge of the current state of the game.

Regardless, as far as the 'beta' argument is concerned, that is a definition that applies to the product and developer in question. Just because a certain set of parameters fit the wiki definition for beta for developer A does not mean that that same set of parameters will apply for developer B.

My company, for which I am a developer, releases software in a beta state, to paying customers, that are not feature complete. These customers understand what they are purchasing but do so as they require some of the features that are complete. This benefits us as it allows us to deploy the software in a live environment and get feedback that we can't always hope to derive from internal QA alone.

This software development. It is not an easy process. It is most certainly not a quick process. And it can definitely be a painful and frustrating process. If you find yourself getting upset, impatient, or frustrated, take a break from the game, you're going through beta burnout. It's a game, and it's not worth getting upset over.

#11 Rizzwind

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Warrior - Point 2
  • Warrior - Point 2
  • 536 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

View Posthammerreborn, on 26 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

OH LOOK ITS THIS THREAD AGAIN

Star Citizen and Marvel Heroes are glad you just defined their games as release!

Edit: Oh, and also Banner Saga: factions and Path of Exile


None of them are open to just anyone signing in and playing yet. Star Citizen is still aphla. Once you no longer have to wait to get into the game and anyone can play at any time that's not a beta anymore.

Edited by Rizzwind, 26 March 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#12 MrPenguin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Raider
  • The Raider
  • 1,815 posts
  • LocationSudbury, Ontario

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:43 AM

View PostRoadbeer, on 26 March 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:



This thread is NEW and EXCITING

This is serious business, I think it needs a poll.

And a really bad meme made through memegenerator!
Every great thread needs a bad meme attached to it!

Edited by MrPenguin, 26 March 2013 - 08:44 AM.


#13 0X2A

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 197 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:43 AM

Did you miss the "BETA" label when you signed up for this game? Just because a game has a working store doesn't mean it's magically out of beta. Games don't develop themselves you know.

View PostMrPenguin, on 26 March 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:


Posted Image
I'm pretty sure that blue text says "BETA".
Unless I'm going crazy here...

Q4T

#14 hammerreborn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 3,063 posts
  • LocationAlexandria, VA

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

View PostRizzwind, on 26 March 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:


None of them are open to just anyone signing in and playing yet. MWO is a All Star Citizen is still aphla. Once you no longer have to wait to get into the game and anyone can play at any time that's not a beta anymore.


When OPs entire argument that there are paid, non-refundable purchases that make it not a beta, all 4 of those games become release through either their crowd funding method (in the cases of Star Citizen and Marvel Heroes) or in game purchases (in the case of PoE and BS:F), all of which are paid, non-refundable purchases.

Edited by hammerreborn, 26 March 2013 - 08:45 AM.


#15 Mackman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:53 AM

PGI: Hey, this game is a Beta, meaning it's not finished yet. Do you want to play?

You: Sure, I guess. Why not?

PGI: Hey, while you're playing, did you know that if you want to get stuff faster, you can spend money?"

You: HOLY ****, I CAN SPEND MONEY? THAT MEANS THE GAME MUST BE FINISHED NOW!

PGI: .... What? No, it's still in Beta, it's still not finished, but if you want to spend money...

You: Yeah, yeah, whatever, dude, here take my money... wait... this game isn't finished! You LIED to me, PGI!

Edited by Mackman, 26 March 2013 - 08:53 AM.


#16 Rakashan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 333 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:59 AM

For what it is worth, you *want* this game to be considered a Beta. It's a statement that PGI knows it is not feature-complete.

#17 Aesthetech

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 92 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:59 AM

View Posthammerreborn, on 26 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:


When OPs entire argument that there are paid, non-refundable purchases that make it not a beta, all 4 of those games become release through either their crowd funding method (in the cases of Star Citizen and Marvel Heroes) or in game purchases (in the case of PoE and BS:F), all of which are paid, non-refundable purchases.


Yes, I consider those games releases as well. Just because an industry, or segments of said industry, has found a way to get people to buy incomplete products doesn't mean I'm giving them a pass on it.

"So you can buy our X43 experimental vacuum cleaner now, and you'll be paying 20% less than whoever buys it at an unspecified time in the future when we decide to bring this vacuum out of the testing phase and into the market. I mean, um, the market that is clearly different from your ability to purchase it right now. Oh, just so you know, it only works on half of the planned surfaces, the reverse mode violently ejects the contents of the device almost instantaneously, and every other week we update its software and it sucks even harder than usual (get it? sucks?! trololol) for unspecified periods of time, but we also may or may not be adding a new feature during this time period (for example, we may enable the self-propulsion mode for a week. And that may be accidental). Oh, also, depending on what kind of funding and resources we get from the people who pay to test our incomplete product, we may never get the funding or results we need to release it (Please don't realize that you paid to test a broken product for the promise of a future discount that will never actually exist, and very likely be near irrelevant due to inflation anyhow)."

Guess I'm not as thirsty for the kool-aid as some are here. OH YEAH!

Edited by Aposiopesis, 26 March 2013 - 09:00 AM.


#18 Roadbeer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 8,160 posts
  • LocationWazan, Zion Cluster

Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:01 AM

View PostAposiopesis, on 26 March 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Yes, I consider those games releases as well. Just because an industry, or segments of said industry, has found a way to get people to buy incomplete products doesn't mean I'm giving them a pass on it.

"So you can buy our X43 experimental vacuum cleaner now, and you'll be paying 20% less than whoever buys it at an unspecified time in the future when we decide to bring this vacuum out of the testing phase and into the market. I mean, um, the market that is clearly different from your ability to purchase it right now. Oh, just so you know, it only works on half of the planned surfaces, the reverse mode violently ejects the contents of the device almost instantaneously, and every other week we update its software and it sucks even harder than usual (get it? sucks?! trololol) for unspecified periods of time, but we also may or may not be adding a new feature during this time period (for example, we may enable the self-propulsion mode for a week. And that may be accidental). Oh, also, depending on what kind of funding and resources we get from the people who pay to test our incomplete product, we may never get the funding or results we need to release it (Please don't realize that you paid to test a broken product for a promise of a discount that will never actually exist)."

Guess I'm not as thirsty for the kool-aid as some are here. OH YEAH!


Can I get custom paint schemes on the vacuum? Can I change them?

Your views intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Edited by Roadbeer, 26 March 2013 - 09:02 AM.


#19 Mackman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 746 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:03 AM

View PostAposiopesis, on 26 March 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:


Yes, I consider those games releases as well. Just because an industry, or segments of said industry, has found a way to get people to buy incomplete products doesn't mean I'm giving them a pass on it.

"So you can buy our X43 experimental vacuum cleaner now, and you'll be paying 20% less than whoever buys it at an unspecified time in the future when we decide to bring this vacuum out of the testing phase and into the market. I mean, um, the market that is clearly different from your ability to purchase it right now. Oh, just so you know, it only works on half of the planned surfaces, the reverse mode violently ejects the contents of the device almost instantaneously, and every other week we update its software and it sucks even harder than usual (get it? sucks?! trololol) for unspecified periods of time, but we also may or may not be adding a new feature during this time period (for example, we may enable the self-propulsion mode for a week. And that may be accidental). Oh, also, depending on what kind of funding and resources we get from the people who pay to test our incomplete product, we may never get the funding or results we need to release it (Please don't realize that you paid to test a broken product for the promise of a future discount that will never actually exist, and very likely be near irrelevant due to inflation anyhow)."

Guess I'm not as thirsty for the kool-aid as some are here. OH YEAH!


Are you telling me you would actually BUY that product? And then have the gall to complain about it, when the product was plainly advertised as such? When the product is plainly advertised as a Beta, you have no right to expect anything else: In fact, it's downright stupid to expect anything else.

#20 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:05 AM

View Posthammerreborn, on 26 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

OH LOOK ITS THIS THREAD AGAIN

Star Citizen and Marvel Heroes are glad you just defined their games as release!

Edit: Oh, and also Banner Saga: factions and Path of Exile


Oh, you mean games that aren't open to the public and don't sell things?

Yeah thanks, gold.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users