75 replies to this topic

[Kartr]

What are BattleMechs, what are OmniMechs and how are they different? Glad you asked!

=============================================================================
BattleMechs are giant robot like machines piloted by a human being. They are designed to carry a specific loadout of weaponry and equipment, there are often variants of a specific design. Variants are professionally designed variations on a standard BattleMech chassis, designed to allow a BattleMech to preform roles that it wasn't originally designed for.

BattleMechs can be modified to meet a pilots preferences, but this is a time consuming and very expensive process. It is so time consuming that BattleMechs cannot be optimized for every engagement. In fact BattleMechs are almost never optimized for their next mission. Since DropShips can move you around the world in a matter of minutes or hours you could find yourself fighting in Northern Europe for one mission and a couple of hours later be engaged in North Africa. You have to pilot the same 'Mech because there simply isn't enough time to reconfigure a BattleMech on the trip over.

Even though there's time to reconfigure BattleMechs during the transit to a different planet, it's still extremely rare for BattleMechs to be optimized for a certain environment. Why? It's still extremely time consuming and planets have such a wide variety of conditions that it makes it very difficult to actually optimize. It's not like a video game where you know that the area you're fighting in is going to be jungle, or city, etc. When you're invading a planet you will wind up fighting in different climates and environments.

Bottom line is BattleMechs are almost never optimized for individual missions. It is simply to time consuming and difficult and in the "real world" not particularly practical.

=============================================================================

OmniMechs are giant robot like machines, piloted by a human being. They are designed to carry a highly variable weapons load in OmniPods. These pods allow for rapid and easy switching of weapons systems. This allows OmniMechs to carry almost any combination of weapons and equipment without having to be redesigned or rebuilt to carry them.

This system gives OmniMechs incredible flexibility and power because they can reconfigure the entire loadout in a few hours, in the field. Compared to days in a fully equipped 'MechLab like a BattleMech. This means that a 'MechWarrior can have his techs swap hardware and weapons to a different configuration while he is getting briefed on the specifics and or in the hours before a mission start.

This means a 'MechWarrior piloting an OmniMech has the ability to optimize his/her configuration before all but the most short notice missions. Perfectly tuning the OmniMech to fit personal preferences and the tactical and environmental situations.

=============================================================================

What does this mean for MW: O and all of us players? Well the Technical Director has stated that they intend for players to be able to rapidly switch their configurations to best fit the game about to be played (paraphrased). This could be a horrible mistake, or highly accurate and very good depending on how they implement it.

If they make it so that players can optimize BattleMech configurations before each battle, then PGI is making a horrible mistake. BattleMechs are not supposed to be optimization, pilots/players are supposed to find the blend of weapons and equipment that works best for them and then make the best use of that system in any and every environment. By allowing BattleMechs to be optimized for every battle they no longer act like classic BattleMechs.

The pre-battle optimization of BattleMechs would also make OmniMechs essentially worthless, because their biggest advantage over BattleMechs is their flexibility. The line becomes blurred and essentially there are no BattleMechs and everything is an OmniMech.

If PGI restricts the rapid configuration switching to OmniMechs they will have made the right call. This preserves the uniqueness of the OmniMech and its advantage over BattleMechs. This choice isn't ruled out by the interview linked above, though neither does it lean for this choice.

=============================================================================

The quickest and easiest way to prevent BattleMechs from being optimized before every battle, but allow OmniMechs to be, would be to lock BattleMechs out for one battle after they've been customized. By locking a BattleMech after it's been modified players cannot optimize their BattleMech for the upcoming battle. However if the OmniMechs aren't locked after modification they could have their configurations quickly and easily changed to optimize them for the next battle, just like "real" OmniMechs.

This system has the advantage of being more fair to new players. Since new players don't have the experience or credits to optimize before every battle, they would be at a disadvantage to experienced players who could optimize their 'Mechs for every map. Rather this system would force even the most experienced and richest player to create a jack of all trade BattleMech to use in almost all situations, reducing their advantage over new players.

This also has the advantage of making stock and factory variants more viable since they're usually designed to be jack-of-all trade BattleMechs to begin with. It also promotes diversity, because rather than all the experienced players using a single optimized configuration on every map, it forces them to use something they're comfortable piloting in many different environments.

[Grokmoo]

I see one further way in which this can be balanced. Rather than limiting customizability, limit player knowledge. Players can customize their mechs to their hearts content, as often as they like. However, before each battle, the player must select their mech (or 4 mechs, for dropship). This happens before the player knows which map they will be fighting on.

[CJDodo]

How about, in regard to what you've stated about OmniMechs being able to have their loadout changed during a briefing etc, instead of punishing BattlemMechs by locking them out of the next battle, but instead allowing OmniMechs to swap around their pods during the short pre-battle time in the lobby? It may not be enough time to do that, but I guess it keeps closest to your descriptions within feasibility/playability.

[Nick Makiaveli]

This is pointless since the clans aren't here and won't be for awhile. Why not focus on actual issues that could be put into place now and save all this for closer to their actual implementation.

Oh wait, we don't even know if the Clans will be playable, so again, maybe wait till we have the beginnings of a clue?

[William Petersen]

Oh look. Another person who doesn't understand quiaff/quineg.

[Faenwulf]

It is in so far important now, because it would be dumb to change the whole game system later on. PGI has to pick one way ( e.g. is a BattleMech customisable before every battle when everyone knows the map/environment or not).

This has nothing to do with the clans being here or not. Even without OmniMechs it is important. Imagin we can't adapt to every Map everytime ( which I would prefer) everyone will need to find his/her build for every Mech instead of copying the builds of other people on the internet before every map.

This would also give the opportunity to include OmniMechs sensefully and appropriate to the canon. The problem here is, that OmniMechs would be very powerful/useful. Would be correct according to canon, but would kill the balance. But how THIS can be usefully applied is something we can talk about when/if they are introduced.

[Kartr]

Grokmoo, on 01 June 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

I see one further way in which this can be balanced. Rather than limiting customizability, limit player knowledge. Players can customize their mechs to their hearts content, as often as they like. However, before each battle, the player must select their mech (or 4 mechs, for dropship). This happens before the player knows which map they will be fighting on.

This works for me, but when OmniMechs become available how will you reflect their ability to optimize for the specific parameters of the next fight?

CJDodo, on 01 June 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

How about, in regard to what you've stated about OmniMechs being able to have their loadout changed during a briefing etc, instead of punishing BattlemMechs by locking them out of the next battle, but instead allowing OmniMechs to swap around their pods during the short pre-battle time in the lobby? It may not be enough time to do that, but I guess it keeps closest to your descriptions within feasibility/playability.

Maybe once you select battle you get a briefing, get to pick your BattleMech and then fight. BattleMechs wouldn't be able to change configurations at this point but Omni's would? That'd work.

Nick Makiaveli, on 01 June 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

This is pointless since the clans aren't here and won't be for awhile. Why not focus on actual issues that could be put into place now and save all this for closer to their actual implementation.

Oh wait, we don't even know if the Clans will be playable, so again, maybe wait till we have the beginnings of a clue?

Actually this is extremely important now. If BattleMechs are given the flexibility of OmniMechs now, what makes future OmniMechs special? Because you can't just take away something from the player base that they've grown used to having for a couple of years, and yes in a couple of years we will have OmniMechs even if we don't have access to Clan Omni's the IS gets their own OmniMechs starting in 3052.

So this is an important idea to tackle now, because at some point OmniMechs will be a part of the game and if they're no different in function to the BattleMechs we've been driving they won't be desirable. Nor would it be in the devs interests to suddenly make BattleMechs less useful at that point and alienate a bunch of players. This has to be decided before the game goes live.

William Petersen, on 01 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Oh look. Another person who doesn't understand quiaff/quineg.

Quiaff acts as a verbal question mark when you expect the answer to be yes. Exactly like asking a question and then finishing the sentence with "yes?"

Quineg acts as a verbal question mark when you expect the answer to be no. Exactly like asking a question and then finishing the sentence with "no?"

[Toothman]

I'll bet money that spam mechs have omni hardpoints instead of class specific hardpoints. But I"m tired of arguing about next year. Who else is concerned that in the dark ages mining mechs are going to be seriously op against farm mechs and forrestry mechs. I can't believe that PGI hasn't addressed this issue yet! My grandchild has a RIGHT to KNOW !!!

[verybad]

William Petersen, on 01 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Oh look. Another person who doesn't understand quiaff/quineg.

Oh look, another freebirth with a bromantic notion about the fascist culture that is the clans.

Also, "doesn't" is a contraction, clanners don't use contractions.

As for the difference between Battlemechs and Omnimechs, Omni's are more expensive to maintain, so that should affect their cost. Just make them more flexible in terms of laodouts, however I think they should still have variants (Prime, Alpha, Beta, etc), because there are technical difficulties related to a completely flexible loadout when it comes to how the (omni)mech looks. There are people that will whine about this, but it would lead to a better working game.

Edited by verybad, 01 June 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[Cruxshadow]

Nick Makiaveli, on 01 June 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

This is pointless since the clans aren't here and won't be for awhile. Why not focus on actual issues that could be put into place now and save all this for closer to their actual implementation.

Oh wait, we don't even know if the Clans will be playable, so again, maybe wait till we have the beginnings of a clue?

Less than a year. The Clans should be here by the end of the year.

[CompleteTanker]

Battlemechs are not as flexible as omnimechs in this game as it stands, because of the hardpoints system.

[Gun Bear]

I'll bet the omnimechs won't have specific weapon hard points the way battlemechs do. Easiest, cleanest, and fastest solution without breaking anything in the game.

With a regular battlemech if you want to mount a PPC somewhere you have to mount it on a hardpoint that supports energy weapons. On an Omnimech you can rip off the LBX10 and replace it with a PPC.

Edited by Gun Bear, 01 June 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Kartr]

CompleteTanker, on 01 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Battlemechs are not as flexible as omnimechs in this game as it stands, because of the hardpoints system.

Gun Bear, on 01 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'll bet the omnimechs won't have specific weapon hard points the way battlemechs do. Easiest, cleanest, and fastest solution without breaking anything in the game.

Except that only really affects total customization. There are so many variants of each BattleMech that I can find one with the hard points I need to modify it the way I want it. All no hard points on OmniMechs does is remove the need to find the right variant first.

The main reason for the OmniMech's existence is the flexibility to customize it for each mission. If you make it so BattleMechs can switch between configurations before a battle, you've removed the entire reason for Omni's to exist.

[Gun Bear]

Oh also... canonically speaking, Omimech pod points are specific sizes, that is their limitation.

[SuomiWarder]

It should be noted that presumably, the pilot of a standard BettleMech knows which planet they intend to go to and spent likely weeks in transit getting there. So changing your weapons before a set of drops on a desert world with a standard BattleMech makes sense to me as you had a long time knowing where you were going to make the changes.

[Gun Bear]

Kartr, on 01 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Except that only really affects total customization. There are so many variants of each BattleMech that I can find one with the hard points I need to modify it the way I want it. All no hard points on OmniMechs does is remove the need to find the right variant first.

The main reason for the OmniMech's existence is the flexibility to customize it for each mission. If you make it so BattleMechs can switch between configurations before a battle, you've removed the entire reason for Omni's to exist.

No you do not, Battlemech's still have the limitations of hard points where Omnimechs don't. You are limited to the types of weaponry you can put on a battlemech, on an omnimech no such limitations exist. You can put an AC in the place of a laser if you wanted which is not possible on a Battlemech. an Omnimech has full 100% customization within the wieght limit where a battlemech forces you to customize within other parameters. A battlemech will almost never be perfect for a mission because of its in built limitations while an Omnimech can be decked out in any way imaginable.

[verybad]

Considering the fact that in most cases even Omnimechs run using their Prime, Alpha, etc loadouts, it seems that there are still some constraints to configuring them, probablythings like getting electronics to work right, rebalancing the gyro, checking for bugs.

Just make it cheaper to change your loadout, but more expensive to fix and a CB penalty for maintaining an OMNI.

While Omnimechs are certainly more flexible, they're not INFINITELY flexible. Plus the techs may need to work on something else before the drop.

Limitations (but yes, fewer limitations) will make for a better game IMO.

Edited by verybad, 01 June 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[ZnSeventeen]

So, how about they are customizable like regular battlemechs, but you can modify each of their loadouts! That would allow you ten plus "variants" that you can modify, for the price of one, expensive, mech! (So a hardpoint system for the prime, different hardpoints for the alpha, etc, that you can then switch between. Of course you still have to buy the stuff.)
Does this make sense to anyone else?

[Evinthal]

verybad, on 01 June 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Also, "doesn't" is a contraction, clanners don't use contractions.

Wrong: A clanner sees contractions as a form of laziness, however this does not prevent them from using them. I've seen them used canonically by clanners when they are angry/upset/ect. To dismiss a clanner using them is a fallacy.

Onto the topic at hand: Yes, we can customize 'mech variants currently but with in certain limitations. Hard points limit what weapons you can place and where you can place them on different variants of non-omni 'mechs. Where as an omni-mech would not have those limitations on it's Omni-pod weapon mounts, giving them a flexibility far above a standard 'mech. However some omni-mechs also have weapons or equipment hard mounted into them.

The Puma (Adder) for example has a flamer hard mounted into its chassis that can not and should not be able to be removed.

Other omni-'mechs have a set amount of heat sinks hard mounted into them that also should not be able to be removed.

I feel that this would set them apart from standard 'mech chassis as it is, but also add in the expense of upkeep for an omni-'mech and it is more than enough of a difference.

Just my opinion though.

[Kartr]

SuomiWarder, on 01 June 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

It should be noted that presumably, the pilot of a standard BettleMech knows which planet they intend to go to and spent likely weeks in transit getting there. So changing your weapons before a set of drops on a desert world with a standard BattleMech makes sense to me as you had a long time knowing where you were going to make the changes.

Except most planets aren't entirely desert or ice or anything else. Like I pointed out in the OP you have the time to modify the BattleMech, but you don't know for sure what types of environments your campaign is going to take you through. Plus canonically such modifications in transit are almost never conducted.

Gun Bear, on 01 June 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

No you do not, Battlemech's still have the limitations of hard points where Omnimechs don't. You are limited to the types of weaponry you can put on a battlemech, on an omnimech no such limitations exist. You can put an AC in the place of a laser if you wanted which is not possible on a Battlemech. an Omnimech has full 100% customization within the wieght limit where a battlemech forces you to customize within other parameters. A battlemech will almost never be perfect for a mission because of its in built limitations while an Omnimech can be decked out in any way imaginable.

I have a Cataphract, I have two confirmed ballistic weapon hard points and four confirmed energy ones. Personally I don't like missile weapons so I'd never mount them on a OmniMech anyway so we don't have to consider them. I can create a Gauss variant for hot world sniping, I can create a PPC variant for cold world sniping, I can create an AC/20 variant for hot world brawling/city fighting and I can create a pulse laser variant for cold world brawling/city fighting. Just like I could with a 70 ton OmniMech so no hardpoints isn't a huge advantage.