75 replies to this topic

[Forscythe]

The likelihood is that you will be able to customize your mech in a mechlab before you accept any campaign with no customization between missions simply due to the game parameters. No one will want to wait around for the guy that needs to completely rip apart his entire mech before each battle and is even less likely to wait in a game where you are fighting 12 on 12. This I think would stand even if you were a clanner. Get your mech built make a cool variant of your favorite mechs and switch mechs depending on mission. Problem solved.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

My take on the discussion is that IS mechs could be customised/variant selected knowing what planet you are playing on ie hot, cold normal. You don't get to optimise for the exact map you are playing on. This would fit canon given the other parameters we are playing with.
Omnimechs would have say up to 5 preset loadouts which can be selected when the actual map is known. Again this would fit canon.
Second line (II C) mechs would be the same as IS mechs.
This is all that the devs need to have in place at the start, so that people get used to playing that way. Anything else concerning the Clans can be sorted out by the devs in the time between launch and the invasion.
Whatever happens, I will be playing IS, so no advantage for me.

[CCC Dober]

Well, it appears that Omni Mechs were specifically created to reduce time/costs for repairs and modifications. The Clans have history and this concept was probably more a necessity due to the circumstances (Civil War, low on resources) than battlefield evolution. Hence why you still see front and second-line Mechs next to each other. Hint: logistics.
Instead of an Omni Mech, you might as well maintain 2+ Standard Mechs covering several roles and forego otherwise expensive modifications altogether (for standard BattleMechs that is).

[String]

I know this is off topic but i have to say it!
Kartr, Zso Sahal, GET ROOM!

[Daneiel]

As I told before the current MechLab give you wrong idea for what must be BattleMech - Its give you the illusion that BattleMech can be modified too easy - that kind of modification must be permitted only for OmniMechs with what we see from the screenshots all mechs are more like Omnimechs not like BattleMechs , so with that MechLab the biggest advantige of the OmniMechs is taken , the only things that remain their price - Atlas cost - 9,000,000 - > Avatar - 17,500,000 , MadDog -> 15,000,000 and Dire Wolf - 29,000,000 c-bills . I hope that will be solved and we will see the proper difference between them .

[Kartr]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 04 June 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

My take on the discussion is that IS mechs could be customised/variant selected knowing what planet you are playing on ie hot, cold normal. You don't get to optimise for the exact map you are playing on. This would fit canon given the other parameters we are playing with.

Afraid not, BattleMechs were not modified based on which planet you were going to be operating on. Partially because modifying BattleMechs is such a difficult and time consuming process, partially because having multiple different configurations means you have to copy your logistics train for every extra configuration you add and finally because planets are not one single biome environments the way SciFi often makes it seem. How would you customize a BattleMech if you were coming here to Earth to fight? You couldn't really, because you could end up fighting in arctic regions, jungles, deserts, savannas, temperate climes, etc.

This idea that BattleMechs can be optimized based on which planet they're going to be fighting on is ludicrious and needs to go away. One cannot optimize their 'Mech for an entire planet, only for the conditions of where on that planet they'll be fighting. That is why the OmniMech is such a good machine, it can let you change configurations in just a few hours so that you can go from fighting in the jungle to fighting in the arctic. BTW not picking on you Nik, its a common mistake that is reinforced by Star Wars, Star Trek and pretty much every SciFi show that has ever existed.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 04 June 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Omnimechs would have say up to 5 preset loadouts which can be selected when the actual map is known. Again this would fit canon.
Second line (II C) mechs would be the same as IS mechs.
This is all that the devs need to have in place at the start, so that people get used to playing that way. Anything else concerning the Clans can be sorted out by the devs in the time between launch and the invasion.
Whatever happens, I will be playing IS, so no advantage for me.

Pretty much what I was thinking Nik, and you're absolutely right the devs need to decide how they're dealing with OmniMechs now so that we can get used to how BattleMechs are going to work. It would be a horrible idea for them to suddenly change the way BattleMechs worked after a year or more of their players getting used to a certain system.

CCC Dober, on 04 June 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

Well, it appears that Omni Mechs were specifically created to reduce time/costs for repairs and modifications. The Clans have history and this concept was probably more a necessity due to the circumstances (Civil War, low on resources) than battlefield evolution.

Sarna.net said:

The Coyote's and Sea Foxes' evolutionary changes to BattleMech design resulted revolutionary changes on the battlefield.

Nope it was an evolutionary changed based on the Mercury BattleMech not some compromise to to make use of lower resources. The goal was to create a 'Mech that could be repaired faster and easier, (the Mercury) and the system that allowed that made it more flexible as a combat machine. Nothing to do with adapting to lower resources and the need to create a less expensive and resource intensive 'Mech.

CCC Dober, on 04 June 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

Hence why you still see front and second-line Mechs next to each other. Hint: logistics.
Instead of an Omni Mech, you might as well maintain 2+ Standard Mechs covering several roles and forego otherwise expensive modifications altogether (for standard BattleMechs that is).

No OmniMechs are not designed to reduce costs, they are actually significantly more expensive than BattleMechs and that is why the Clans still use BattleMechs. OmniMechs are significantly more expensive due to their added complexity and the materials you need to make them, however their ability to be optimized for the next mission/environment and the ease with which they can be repaired makes that cost worthwhile. However the cost is still so much that only frontline units are given access to it and second line units use the much less expensive, but less flexible BattleMech.

Edited by Kartr, 04 June 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[CCC Dober]

Idk about the exact circumstances that provoked the invention of Omni Mechs. But one thing is certain: the Clans as a whole have learned to keep a good eye on their resources. This point has been driven home so often in the material I read, it is beyond doctrine as such. It has become part of their way of life.

Now my theory is that the Omni Mech became the logical conclusion of that idea, not a byproduct or evolutionary offspring of BattleMechs in general. Look at the Mech concept and how it works. Instead of building and maintaining several Mechs with fixed, non-interchangable weapons, modules etc. each Omni Mech can easily share parts with the next. This is especially useful when resources are low. As I said already, the Clans always try their hardest to avoid wasting resources. This Omni concept becomes exceedingly more powerful when low resources are not (considered) a problem, as the Mechs can adapt fairly quickly and logistics must only account for spare parts and weapons, instead of whole Mechs to cover several roles.

I'm not really challenging the evolutionary step that OmniMechs represent, but more the steps that led to their creation. They were born out of necessity (lack of resources, easing logistics) not in combat. Standard Mechs that added variants over time and grew increasingly more potent, now they have evolved without a doubt. That's what I'd call evolution. OmniMechs however were born perfect in that sense. Imperial Guard versus Space Marines would be a fitting comparison I think.

Edited by CCC Dober, 05 June 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Kartr]

CCC Dober, on 05 June 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Idk about the exact circumstances that provoked the invention of Omni Mechs. But one thing is certain: the Clans as a whole have learned to keep a good eye on their resources. This point has been driven home so often in the material I read, it is beyond doctrine as such. It has become part of their way of life.

That's a falsehood the Clans like to proclaim about themselves, "we're less wasteful!" Then why do you allow Trials of any kind? Why do you only do live fire practice instead of simulation? Why do you engage in wasteful combat to acquire new technology instead of using trade or espionage? The Clans have had their own internal wars and are generally quite wasteful.

CCC Dober, on 05 June 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Now my theory is that the Omni Mech became the logical conclusion of that idea, not a byproduct or evolutionary offspring of BattleMechs in general. Look at the Mech concept and how it works. Instead of building and maintaining several Mechs with fixed, non-interchangable weapons, modules etc. each Omni Mech can easily share parts with the next. This is especially useful when resources are low. As I said already, the Clans always try their hardest to avoid wasting resources. This Omni concept becomes exceedingly more powerful when low resources are not (considered) a problem, as the Mechs can adapt fairly quickly and logistics must only account for spare parts and weapons, instead of whole Mechs to cover several roles.

Except the evolution is very clear, Mercury has easy to maintain hardpoints, that is evolved into hardpoints that allow quick swaps. This was useful because it gave tactical superiority since the 'Mechs could be customized to fit mission parameters.

Except you can build 2 or 3 BattleMechs for the price of one OmniMech. This gives you more bang for your buck at the cost of flexibility. And the Clans never seem to worry about logistics anyway (one of the reasons their invasion failed) and always conduct live fire exercises, so supplies must not be a big concern for the Clans period. Reinforcing the idea that the OmniMech, a more expensive and resource intensive design, was developed and became widely used because of its tactical flexibility not its (non-existent) logistics advantage.

CCC Dober, on 05 June 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

I'm not really challenging the evolutionary step that OmniMechs represent, but more the steps that led to their creation. They were born out of necessity (lack of resources, easing logistics) not in combat. Standard Mechs that added variants over time and grew increasingly more potent, now they have evolved without a doubt. That's what I'd call evolution. OmniMechs however were born perfect in that sense. Imperial Guard versus Space Marines would be a fitting comparison I think.

Atlas II: 11,198,000 C-Bills
Dire Wolf: 29,350,000 C-Bills

Sarna.net said:

With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology. (emphasis mine)

OmniMechs are not cost effective in terms of production when compared to BattleMechs. Their superiority on the battlefield is the only reason they're used. This shoots the notion that the OmniMech was developed to conserve resources out of the water. If they wanted to conserve resources they would use the less resource intensive BattleMechs. OmniMechs have extreme tactical flexibility and that along with being easier to repair are why they were developed.

[Drunken Skull]

There seems to be a few misconceptions flying around as to what is an "Omnimech", so I will make the technical difference between normal mech and omnimech clear for you all.

Battlemech = Fixed hardpoint type/loction ; (only a certain type and # of weapons may be used per location on the mech, further limited by the availability of free slots and tonnage.)

Omnimech = No Fixed hardpoint type/location (any given # & type of weapon may be mounted in any position on the mech, the only limiting factors being the availability of free slots and tonnage.)

Clan technology = can be fitted on IS mechs, and vice versa. ( Clan tech is extremely rare and highly expensive on IS markets because it is only acquired from battlefield salvage, is often damaged, and quite difficult to repair in IS Mechworks.)

there is no special "hot swapping" abilities with an Omni.. they are not magical, they are just mechs designed with "universal" weapons mounts.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 03 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

Kartr, on 05 June 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

That's a falsehood the Clans like to proclaim about themselves, "we're less wasteful!" Then why do you allow Trials of any kind? Why do you only do live fire practice instead of simulation? Why do you engage in wasteful combat to acquire new technology instead of using trade or espionage? The Clans have had their own internal wars and are generally quite wasteful. Except the evolution is very clear, Mercury has easy to maintain hardpoints, that is evolved into hardpoints that allow quick swaps. This was useful because it gave tactical superiority since the 'Mechs could be customized to fit mission parameters. Except you can build 2 or 3 BattleMechs for the price of one OmniMech. This gives you more bang for your buck at the cost of flexibility. And the Clans never seem to worry about logistics anyway (one of the reasons their invasion failed) and always conduct live fire exercises, so supplies must not be a big concern for the Clans period. Reinforcing the idea that the OmniMech, a more expensive and resource intensive design, was developed and became widely used because of its tactical flexibility not its (non-existent) logistics advantage. Atlas II: 11,198,000 C-Bills Dire Wolf: 29,350,000 C-Bills OmniMechs are not cost effective in terms of production when compared to BattleMechs. Their superiority on the battlefield is the only reason they're used. This shoots the notion that the OmniMech was developed to conserve resources out of the water. If they wanted to conserve resources they would use the less resource intensive BattleMechs. OmniMechs have extreme tactical flexibility and that along with being easier to repair are why they were developed.

The changing of hands of territory within clan space is done through a "trial" consisting of 2 or 3 stars of mechs piloted by the best available in a "competition" between the interested parties eventuating in a winning party and a losing party (who become "bondsmen") All the damage in this confrontation occuring in a pre-designated area to minimise any collateral damage to key infrastructure or populace.

During these trials an auto-eject function is standard and an actual death is rare and seen as a tragic loss of skill by both parties.

Often a takeover within clan territory can occur with little fanfare and no loss of life. No prisoners are taken and no crime is "seen" to have been committed. The losing party become bondsmen ( essentially "changing flags" ) and it is for this reason that most vet clanners have served with many if not all the different clans.

Technology is shared amongst the clans equally and research is undertaken by the scientific caste ( much like FED-COM and STAR-COM in IS space) and is completely unaffected by clan party politics.

now consider what happens when an Inner sphere House decides it would like one of it's neighbours planets...

Edited by Drunken Skull, 03 January 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Viper69]

Holy friggin necro.

[Marhalut]

I heard talk of having 'four mechs availble' each round in some of the talks about 'respawns' and such. I'm curious, if they made a game mode that had 'rounds' we'll say, where if you had an Ominmech you could customize it to the next mission in the rooster.

For example, you're playing a three round mission list. The first is in the desert, so your Laserboat Hunchy is looking hot in all the wrong ways. If it were a Battlemech (I'm simply using the Hunchback as an example here, as it is not a Omnimech) you would just have to suck it up. However, if it were an Omnimech you could swap it out for, say, a more ballistic oriented format? Furthermore, the next rounds is in the snow, so you'd want to switch back to your laserboat.

I think THAT would be an awesome thing to add, if they ever got to that point.Just my two pences about it though, really.

Interesting discussion OP, by the way!

[PaintedWolf]

OmniMech config will probably become more important in Dropship match games.

[PaintedWolf]

Kartr, on 05 June 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

That's a falsehood the Clans like to proclaim about themselves, "we're less wasteful!" Then why do you allow Trials of any kind? Why do you only do live fire practice instead of simulation? Why do you engage in wasteful combat to acquire new technology instead of using trade or espionage? The Clans have had their own internal wars and are generally quite wasteful.

In the book I read they did not have anything destroyed in a trial- it was done with Mechs but damage was simulated. I think it was for a Bloodname though so internal Clan. Between Clans it is to control warfare- trying to gain the benefits of war without collateral effects to infrastructure or general R&D.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 03 January 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Sonnemo]

Thou i going to be a bit necromantic writing here, but i can not agree with topic starter. Actually, omnimech system is not consist of advantages only. Yes, with omnipoint system you can switch weapons very fast, you shuld not be aware about how much and what type of hardpoint chasis has, but this system has great influense on chasis construction. Many systems cannot be switched at all (engine, internal structure and armor type), unless you change the whole chasis. Also, omnimechs just more expensive in production.
OmniMech must be suited perfectly for one single role, it is specialist mech, so when a battle goes not as predicted, omnimechs may found themselves in disadvantage. In oppose, battlemechs may be less specific and so less effective, but can act more roles in case of changeing strategy.

Edited by Sonnemo, 27 December 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[SaltBeef]

Like a star commander equipping his mechs with only Ballistics and lrm heavy weapons then getting dragged down in guerrilla warfare with his supply lines cut. Not happening in this game. So Omni is better.