11 replies to this topic

[Shinikaru]

I'm probably not alone in thinking that assault games where you or the enemy team just rushes a cap (esp on big maps like alpine and tourmaline) are pointless and annoying.
My suggestion is to remove the 25k reward for playing and set it to ZERO, while also having salvage bonus go to the side with the most kills, and not simply the winning side.

thoughts?

[blinkin]

so you intend to outright punish anyone who caps? if you don't like the game mode go for conquest.

[Shinikaru]

blinkin, on 26 March 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

so you intend to outright punish anyone who caps? if you don't like the game mode go for conquest.

Actually, I believe you missed my point entirely. If you WANT to cap from the get go, Conquest is there for you. But capping from the outset on Assault, that's foolish. Yet happens Often.

I play Assault to blow up other giant robots, with My giant robot. Not charge to a single cap point across a 2k+, M map. That's for Conquest.

I'm talking about further changes to Inspire actual fighting over capping on Assault mode. Rushing caps on Assault punishes Everyone that came to fight, imo. (except the people that seem to believe that winning > $$$ + FUN)

Edited by Shinikaru, 26 March 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Mad Porthos]

Uuhm, no. I know so many out there hate capping as an approach to victory, but it is there for a damn good reason - tactics. Before one gets on a high horse about what poor tactice using fast mechs, ecm mechs, etc to cap, understand I'm not only talking about the cappers ... those being capped need to consider real base defense.

Base defense is not everyone on base having a boring time being picked apart by Lrm fire. Its having those able to fight cappers off NOT off at the other end of nowhere trying to cap the enemy, start a headlong rush BACK to base once the notice 50% capture on thier own. A unhealthy mentality has set in where every group feels the only way to win is to be all in with the group. Simplistic rather than elegant, this is flawed. Despite those protesting stick together and griping about those fools who stayed back at base feeling they are right and it all needs to be kept simple, base defense cannot be ignored.

People are infuriated by base caps and want it removed from the picture by disincentivising it. This is another aspect of the dulling down and simplification of things. If you can gripe loud enough and long enough you can convince quite a few that capping is an invalid way of playing the game, oft due to thier own disappointments seeing it work on them. It does simplify things, but it does not improve the level of play, merely guarantees less variety in play styles.

What do I mean by this? Well in the fall, I saw plenty assaults where cappingwas the victory. I hated when it was used against out team and regretted my noobish mistakes of running out to fight, rather than defending base. Gradually though I began to be more cautious, especially when I began to recognize certain groups or indivuals I knew would cap. I got in to base defense and hanging back more and more and found very often I was the only on close enough to respond when the whole enemy team, or at least thier capture lance, moved in. Sure I died but sometimes being on base gave enough time for our team to get on thiers and out cap, or else to get back and eliminate the cappers. This was good, but really stupid. This happens so often that even in PUG, one or two should agree to protect base... but so often rather than being lauded, the attitude is that base defense is unimportant and costs the team mechs needed purely in the assault.

What everyone seems to consistently ignore is that capture is adeliberate weak spot you must protect, arging for the removal of any incentive for taking caps is feeding into the "I ONLY WANNA PLAY TEAM DEATHMATCH(ASSAULT)"aesthetic. It has to stop. Capturing bases is one of the few tactical things you actually CAN do currently, letting you put pressure on otherwise entrenched enemies who are putting all thier eggs in one basket. That cap threat can turn even ddc atlases around to thier base, or encourage variety and movement in an enemy who must now counter capture - rather than use their 4 ddc, 4 poptart team to snipe.

While consumable airstrikes and artillery also may soon shake things up the way caps can, Ifeel anything that forces teams to mix it up rather than continually spam thier group trained pop tart, ddc and even raven swarm cap tactics, will be an improvement. I call for diversity, not all toeing the same all or nothing line, marching to the big brawl for a loss to snipe/cap cause of no diversity in play style or tactics.

[Shinikaru]

That was a well thought out reply Porthos, but you gloss over some simple facts.
Assaults incentive currently IS FIGHTING OVER CAPPING. They reduced cap bonus to 25k/win/loss, they INCREASED assist money.
Would DETERRING capping from the get go, and I mean get go, load in everyone charges for cap AVOIDING ALL FIGHTS be a bad thing?
My suggestion still works here perfectly fine....let me lay it out.
BASE LOSS/WIN = 0
Salvage goes to team with highest kills = 100%
What we end up with is a game where neither side looks to rush from the start and ends up avoiding ALL FIGHTING.
Now Tactically, this is still sound from your perspective as I understand what your saying, both teams need to be cautious here, The side with more kills gets the gold. Also, it still functions perfectly as a distraction to pull off entrenched teams, if they're under kill total currently, they will respond.
If they are over kill total, your team is either forced to fight to the death, or cap regardless, and take the bonuses they got from damage and component destruction (which unless your totally ignoring the stat screen are where the Real $$$ in Assault is).
The only difference is the current way, there is incentive to just ignore the other team and flank so far around them they never appear as a blip on your radar.
This way it is as you suggested I was alluding too, a death match, where the actual better team takes all.
This is mechwarrior, not cap warrior.
As an addendum, there is nothing tactical at all about rushing a cap in assault and never engaging.
If you take into account time (actual time) involved in playing a base cap x 25k, and compare it to the obscenely higher gold total you garner for a win/loss + salvage + damage + component + spotting + savior kill + slightly longer match, the game where everyone fights is a far far more logical way to spend your REAL TIME vs in game Reward.

[Space Odin]

http://mwomercs.com/...assault-better/

[Shinikaru]

Space Odin, on 26 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...assault-better/

The reason that can't work as is, is due to zombie. What happens if somehow your last man standing, (OR BOTH) have no weapons/ammo left?
Ending the game via cap is a necessary mechanic for just this reason. However, it should have Zero Weight on a win loss incentive.

But im with you, there should be no incentive to capping only in assault, that's what Capture is for.

Edited by Shinikaru, 26 March 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Space Odin]

Shinikaru, on 26 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

The reason that can't work as is, is due to zombie. What happens if somehow your last man standing, (OR BOTH) have no weapons/ammo left?
Ending the game via cap is a necessary mechanic for just this reason. However, it should have Zero Weight on a win loss incentive.

Interesting point. It seems extremely unlikely that neither team has mechs with any weapons left to hurt the enemy building. The way assault currently is if theres only one mech left on each team the most reliable way to win is to sit on your base and not leave, let your opponent come to you and fight it out. This can also lead to a stalemate if neither player wants to fight his opponent. This is mostly a non issue because none of the dead players are forced to sit through the game, they can simply leave. If the two surviving mechs wanna sit in an empty game all day then thats their choice.

The most obvious solution to this problem would be a stalemate detection code. The server after a set period of time would notice that no mechs are being damaged by enemy fire and neither building is being hurt. It then adds a very short timer, if neither building is hurt within that time frame and the timer reaches zero the game ends as a draw. Players are awarded Cbills with a bonus being somewhere between 50 and 25k. Starcraft has this function.

[XphR]

If you loose the battle the new land owners should not be forced to let you limp away with their wounded pilots resources. To the victors go the spoils to do with as they please be it recycle them or leave them to rust into the battlefield.

[Donas]

Some thoughts:

A stalker and a Commando are the only remaining mechs on their respective teams. With no Cap, the commando can go hide, power down, and the stalker is doomed to plod around for the rest of the battle by himself only to earn a draw. Having the cap points gives the stalker a way to at least have a 50/50 shot at finding and killing the enemy light mech. If the stalker is more than halfway to the enemy cap, he can start capping and FORCE the commando to show himself, if he's close to home, he can back off and cover his own base, at which point the Commando may show himself hoping for an easy cap at the end.

Alternative capping options in assault:
(stolen from WoT) Battletype: Encounter. Their is ONE cappable point, and it is equidistant from both teams spawn.

King of the Hill match, where the capping point is in the center of the board, and players respawn from random board edges. Battle ends when either time expires (30 minutes or so, winner is the team with the most kills) or when one team has had sole possession of the center cap point for a total time of say, 5 minutes.

Edited by Donas, 26 March 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Donas]

http://mwomercs.com/...ng-of-the-hill/

since it should probably have it.

[Shinikaru]

I'm not asking for cap mechanic to be removed. As I said it's a necessary mechanic that solves any "can't fight/kill" the enemy issues. All i'm saying is that basically; Unless the actual "cap" bonus is reduced to Zero, there will always be a number of matches where that's all your team wants to do.
I'm basically asking for death-matches, maybe a new mode where winner takes all, and winner is kill totals.
Draw 8/8 (which can happen) results in half salvage bonus for each side (or even full bonus to both sides, an 8/8 was a close game!).
I'm just tossing out ideas here, but I know for a fact, without having to have seen it personally, that all of us have currently had many games where zero shots are fired and both sides walk away with 25k in assault.
For me, this is mundane, illogical, and ostensibly annoying.

Edited by Shinikaru, 27 March 2013 - 11:48 AM.