43 replies to this topic

[Furmansky]

Cheese build is actually any build you are able to kill any self proclaimed Master skilled Great Mechwarrior...
You know that build, that needs absolutely no skill to use to kill every other great, over skilled warrior?.... Good we don't have to many of those or actually it would turn out that all builds, weapons, tactics... etc are cheese or OP.

Just Ignore the complaints and walk through battlefield proudly... and let the ones on the ground Cry.

I'm not the best I'm not the worst... but I don't get fussy when I'm defeated... When I die is usually my mistake from which I try to learn, or someone was simply just better. Why the hell so many players think they are the best and complain about every bloody thing that kills them.

I know some build are better some worse ( obviously ) but there is no single weapon or build that grants you automatic victory. Good Pilot can do good in weak builds and miraculous things with good builds... BUT it comes always down to pilot first... Mech second... SO ALL CHEESE PILOTS GET LOST WILL YA

[Koniving]

Some people make their battlemechs out of cheese. We call them cheese builds.

Seriously: Typically these are cookie cutter builds that are deemed to be extremely over powered, difficult to beat, or otherwise just "cheap" in the sense of a "kick to the groin" in a boxing match.

The most prime example is the Raven 3-L before all the fixes, when everyone knew it was hard to hit, and then giving it ECM, Streaks, No Heat Issues, and then bringing them in a pack where nothing stands a chance.

There are solutions to dealing with cheese builds however. These are two of my favorites.

Bring a Spider to fight the Raven 3-L Cheese build...and go afk until he comes up to you.


Step on them.

[Icepick]

"Cheese" is what happens when a frustrated/arrogant Mechwarrior meets an optimized build.

[Forestal]

Koniving, on 27 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Some people make their battlemechs out of cheese. We call them cheese builds.

Seriously: Typically these are cookie cutter builds that are deemed to be extremely over powered, difficult to beat, or otherwise just "cheap" in the sense of a "kick to the groin" in a boxing match.

And "cheap" not in the monetary sense of MCs of C-bills-- or most trial/stock mechs would be considered "cheese"-- but "cheap" in terms of SKILL/ EFFORT... because your battle stats/values such as Elo, kill-death, win-loss or whatever ratios is suppose to be a reflection of great skills and experience-- and NOT the willingness to repeat a "zero/low-skill/effort" but "sure-win/no-loss" strategy ad infinitum.

See Seven Deadly Sins of Gaming, in particular Nos.4 and 7:
http://www.cracked.c...ine-gaming.html


In that sense, even equipment/ builds that costs a lot of MCs or C-bills could be considered "cheese" (if they are "zero/low-skill/effort" but "sure-win/no-loss" equipment/ builds)-- aka "pay-to-win" (ability/willingness to pay is NOT considered skill/effort) is merely a special case of "cheese".

IOW, all those other excuses, err I mean replies equating "cheese" = "optimized/ winner/ etc."... yeah, they are still "cheese" (if they are "zero/low-skill" but "sure-win/no-loss" equipment/ builds)-- e.g. everyone fears or uses ECM, but nobody really RESPECTS them.

Edited by Forestal, 27 March 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Benjamin Davion]

I had somebody call my brand-new Atlas D-DC 'cheese' yesterday. It has two PPCs, a Gauss rifle, 1 LRM 10, 1 SSRM. Stock engine, full armor, DHS, ECM, AMS, BAP, Advanced Seimic, Advanced Sensor Range. Yes, it has an obscene amount of firepower. Yes, it can strip armor off you in a hurry. Yes, it's armored to the gills and not easy to kill. THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF AN ATLAS. To carry massive firepower and absorb massive firepower in return. It's not cheese to optimize a design to fill its role in the best way possible. It's not an 'I-Win' button. You're still driving the slowest mech on the battlefield with a slow turn radius, slow aiming, and poor maneuvering. Smart tactics (or a dumb driver, or even a good driver making mistakes) will have it run into the ground very quickly. Yes, ECM gives me and everyone smart enough to stay close to me a sound tactical advantage. That's the purpose of ECM and it's sound tactics to use it this way. BAP, scouts, and other tactics can negate this advantage. It can be defeated. There is no 'I-Win' button in this game. Yes, it gets annoying being killed by a HexaPPC stalker, but my immediate thought isn't 'DAMMIT NERF THIS MECH' it's 'What did I do wrong/ what can I do differently next time?' Stop bitching about 'cheese' and play smart.

[Training Instructor]

The Raven 3L was the pre-eminent and longest lasting cheese mech, enjoying almost five months of Godhood.

It took very little skill to use one, and it's wonky hitboxes, total lack of hit registration, and terrible lagshield resulted in massive amounts of frustration.

There were also loads of condescending people who claimed to be some kind of god at killing the notorious 3L with an AC20 to the face, but the reality for most of those guys is that they caught a brand new 3L played by a terrible pilot one time, and used that experience to forget about all the times they got wrecked by any semi-decent player. Later on, they came out with the advanced target decay and 360 degree targeting modules, which made it even better at killing other lights.

Judging by the number of 3Ls I saw, and very low number of 2x and 4x Ravens, I think a lot of people were converting unused xp to gxp with MC, leveling the two bad variants without actually playing them.

[Roosterfish]

The whole 'cheese' build thing is sour grapes. Everyone has the same access to the same mechs and weapons ( hero and champion mechs cost real money so not everyone buys them ). It's up to them to use them or not.

[RF Greywolf]

Roosterfish, on 23 July 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

The whole 'cheese' build thing is sour grapes. Everyone has the same access to the same mechs and weapons ( hero and champion mechs cost real money so not everyone buys them ). It's up to them to use them or not.

Good point to an extent. Some player dosen't want to use those mechs/weapons/"cheese builds" because of the negative publicity they get. I think it is more about the pilot, less about the mech. The mech can't help how it's outfitted, it is just a machine. Maybe it should be changed to cheese pilots? It is the pilots that are outfitting the mech to the point where they can just hit one button and vaporize a component. It really comes down to the fact that some pilots search for the easiest way of playing the game with the smallest amount of time needed to get good, while other pilots love the challenge of trying to master a build that takes time, patience and skill to use.

Greywolf

[Modo44]

People seem to confuse "cheese" with "powerful/optimized". "Cheese" means a high-risk, high-reward approach. Simple examples would be a laser-less LRM boat (4xLRM15 Awesome), a very hot energy setup (6 PPC Stalker), or a build with limited but powerful weapons (AC20 Centurion). Each of those loses to more balanced builds and pilots with brains/good aim, but they do major damage in favourable conditions.

Edited by Modo44, 23 July 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[mailin]

Today I was in my Spider 5D with 3 mplas and I got called cheese by the enemy. Here's the funny part. Two of the last 3 mechs I killed (I was the last guy standing for my team) were splatcats, the other was a zombie hunchy, so I don't think he really counts.

[Royalewithcheese]

mailin, on 23 July 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Today I was in my Spider 5D with 3 mplas and I got called cheese by the enemy. Here's the funny part. Two of the last 3 mechs I killed (I was the last guy standing for my team) were splatcats, the other was a zombie hunchy, so I don't think he really counts.

Hahaha that's pretty glorious.

OT: I think "cheese" is code for "something I don't own that blew up my robot."

[BoPop]

there is no such thing as a cheese build. even though I myself will call a PPC boat or dual AC20 jager a cheese build that's what I love running in my jagers hehehehe. I just call 'em cheese for fun, or if i'm frustrated. KABOOOM! (dual ac20) ya gota love the kaboom.

besides, if a dualAC20 jager doesn't make those shots count, he's down to nothing but a medium laser, and they have to run XL anyways giving you 3 components to choose from to kill them.

If you can build it, they will come. Don't hate the player, hate the game, or your team.

If you kill someone and they say "cheese build" it means you did your job. with the new heat penalties I've seen more mech diversity, fun, fun, and less PPC snipers (ultimate cheese to me) they are still out there but usually when I get around to fighting a PPC boat his CT is ready for the taking and all i have to do is get the outer armor.

a buddy of mine still runs 2ERPPC/2PPC in his stalker and does quiet well but I would call him an exceptionally good player in order to not overheat himself too much (discipline). plus he's a GREAT shot, (and I think he has an awesome computer he's always shooting things I don't even have rendered....)

[Quardak]

Cheese is often used for using the easy way.

Spider for its broken hit detection... Everyone knew a battle with 4 Mechs shooting at that little thing and only a little damag counted

All Pinpoint Mechs for its: you are dead in 10 seconds.... and so on

some Patches ago it was the Splatcat... or the Gauss-Cat... or the LRM-Boat... Every Month gets use a new cheesy Setup

Anyone Like dual PPC+Gauss in EVERY Mech

I saw it in

Hunch/Treb/Jaeger/Cat/Pract/Victor/Stalker/Highlander/Atlas

[Loc Nar]

[Bront]

I think it also spills over into other mechs trying to immitate them.

ERPPC on a Jenner or Spider? Sure, why not!

Often Cheese builds are the ones that spill over to the players who simply follow the "meta" when they don't know how to use what they're working with.

[Master Q]

Try: "Builds that exploit a known broken mechanic or bug in the game."

For instance consider: many Spider builds right now that rely on a top edge XL engine and the fact that HSR and the Spider's hitboxes are both bugged as hell, giving you perfect lagshield. Without the bugs known to be in the game (HSR broken, Spider hitboxes bugged) it wouldn't be nearly as effective but many players will consider it cheesy because you are exploiting known bugs to avoid being hit.

Another one from way-back-when was the "Dragon Dozers", a Dragon with a 400XL engine that ran around plowing into people back when collision was badly implemented and the Dragons didn't have a knockdown animation, knocking over almost every mech on the field and leaving them exposed to enemy fire.

Edited by Master Q, 23 July 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[Troggy]

Exactly this. The streak cat being the perfect example. Screen shake was poorly implemented, therefore it was virtually unbeatable in any 1 vs. 1 situation even though it carried minimal weapons.

More recently, the 6PPC Stalker prior to overheat damage (heat-scaling is a different issue), because it allowed you to access nearly 200% heat without taking any damage, something never really intended by the game mechanics (though not expressly forbidden).

--
Troggy

Master Q, on 23 July 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Try: "Builds that exploit a known broken mechanic or bug in the game."

[Lugh]

mailin, on 23 July 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Today I was in my Spider 5D with 3 mplas and I got called cheese by the enemy. Here's the funny part. Two of the last 3 mechs I killed (I was the last guy standing for my team) were splatcats, the other was a zombie hunchy, so I don't think he really counts.

mailin, on 23 July 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Today I was in my Spider 5D with 3 mplas and I got called cheese by the enemy. Here's the funny part. Two of the last 3 mechs I killed (I was the last guy standing for my team) were splatcats, the other was a zombie hunchy, so I don't think he really counts.

mailin, on 23 July 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Today I was in my Spider 5D with 3 mplas and I got called cheese by the enemy. Here's the funny part. Two of the last 3 mechs I killed (I was the last guy standing for my team) were splatcats, the other was a zombie hunchy, so I don't think he really counts.

The spider is the very definition of cheese.

Any Mech that has 80+% of the damage that hits it get ignored, should not be piloted.

It has happened to Dragons (stopped piloting them then), Raven 3Ls (again stopped) and piloted mechs with non-broken hit boxes. If you have to pilot a BUGGED mech to be successful, you are a sad sad pilot.

[AaronWolf]

Anything that kill's someone is a cheesebuild... It's just like any FPS/TPS...anything with Pew-Pew. People will complain the second they can about how it's not -Their- fault for dying, but some game mechanic exploit or you cheating.

Lugh, on 23 July 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

It has happened to Dragons (stopped piloting them then), Raven 3Ls (again stopped) and piloted mechs with non-broken hit boxes. If you have to pilot a BUGGED mech to be successful, you are a sad sad pilot.

This is true though.

Edited by AaronWolf, 23 July 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Master Q]

AaronWolf, on 23 July 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Anything that kill's someone is a cheesebuild...

Except when the devs admit, point-blank, that something is a broken mechanic.

Dragondozers = broken mechanic (collision/knockdown with a mech that had no knockdown animation and thus no risk to itself).

Streakcats = exploited the overactive shake mechanic. Later fixed with drastic reduction to shake.

Splatcats = exploited the overactive splash damage mechanic. Later fixed with removal of splash damage.

Spiders = let's face it, it's the HSR and hitbox problems making these overpowered by letting them ignore correctly fired damage more than 80% of the time right now. Fix that, and they won't feel nearly so powerful because their tissue paper armor will go fast.

6-ERPPC Stalkers = broken mechanic. As seen above, they could get to 200% heat, which was supposed to be an impossibility in the gameplay engine.

The final piece of the problem is convergence. The developers have said repeatedly that they did NOT intend the game to have instant convergence. There are two skills in the skill three that deal with convergence speeds, and the developers have said over and over that convergence itself is broken and those skills currently don't actually change anything in the engine. In other words, the problem mechanic that needs fixing is convergence. Convergence was supposed to be the fix that prevented massed pinpoint damage at stupidly distant ranges and prevented things like the AC40 Jagers from being ridiculous. Sure, you could fire two AC20s, but you'd be most likely to have one hit target and the other hit a different panel.

So at the moment, the insane pinpoint boats are - by this definition - "cheese." Or at very least they are exploiting a mechanic that the developers themselves have admitted is broken in the engine.