152 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

I would have to say that my favorite f2p title is league of legends. I dont really have anything negative to say about it.

You never have to play ranked if you dont want to. Ranked play is completely separate from the other levels.

They have 2 level systems. 1st is out of game, your toon can reach a max of lvl 30, and you do not have access to ranked play until you reach it. It takes maybe 100+ matches to reach lvl 30. Each match lasts a minimum of 20 minutes, and has an infinite timer. A match can potentially last forever. Though most are over in 20-30 minutes. It can take a long time to reach level 30 if your a casual player.

Next they have player v AI. Dont want the stress of dealing with unpredictable players or harassing? You can play agaisnt the AI, which can actually be quite challenging if your not used to the AI quirks They are always tweeking them to be smarter, and many casual players play nothing but AI games.
Next is normal solo q. the first level of player vs player. This is not ranked. Its a good place to practice for ranked and learn the meta.

Last is the ranked play and matching uses an ELO system. The normal play also uses ELO but that one is hidden. Ranked ELO is available for all to see. AI mode has no matchmaker or ELO.


I think MWO should also have different levels of play. I would like it if they had an AI but I doubt PGI will ever do that. But what they can do is separate casual play from ranked play, and they should also separate players by tech levels. No upgrades vs upgrades. I believe this will solve many issues.

Edited by Teralitha, 27 March 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Znail]

I would be happy if they only updated the MWO Elo system some. It's rather bad as it is. While from a math stand point so may it seem god to insert new players in the middle of the Elo field, but in reality so is it bad to have a new player in a trial mech be valued as highly as an average old player of hundreds of games with his custom mech.

Edited by Znail, 30 March 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[maXe72]

Bump +1

[Balm]

I played a ton of MW2,3,4+mercs back in the day, and I finally decided to get into MWO.

I just started playing two days ago.

I haven't read anything about the game besides the tutorial videos.

From a completely unbiased perspective of a new players who is a fan of the MW franchise, I can tell you that the 'new player experience' is complete, and total garbage.

Getting slaughtered in trial mechs for the first ~15 matches is unfun, unrewarding, and not very educational.

Now, I know better than to just jump into a game without informing myself at all, but I was concerned about the health of MWO as a game with lasting power, so I didn't obsess over builds and mechs before hand. I just dived in, like a random new player with a passing interest would.

This is some broken stuff. A random casual would just uninstall the game after getting insta-gibbed in their trash trial mech (that they can't even figure out how to pilot really). Watching as a spectator reveals that new players are so completely clueless and helpless that I can only assume they are experiencing a great deal of frustration. 1-2 shotted, base rushed, ECM jammed, whatever...it's just not new player friendly. Even 'low elo' matches have lots of pubstars that stomp green mechs with ease.

The mech lab is unintuitive, confusing, and unapproachable. The variants are not varied enough. Engines are too expensive(seriously), and weapon stats are misleading.

I would never blame a new player for quitting this game in frustration, after a few hours of misery.

I know better though, and after becoming exasperated, I went to the forums and started reading some guides and watched some match videos. I saw some builds that remind me of running around in a gauss cannon madcat in mw4, and so I picked up a K2. After a few hours of playing around, I wasn't even using gausses anymore, and instead found UAC-5's + ML's to be awesomely effective, and have been absolutely tearing up 'low elo' matches since. (cont)...

The majority of new and dumb players don't think to take the step I did. They just quit games like these, because they are unapproachable.

The only thing I can really compare it to is World of Tanks, except without tiers, and instead new players in tier 2-3's are pit against veterans in t9-10's.

A properly built and specialized mech just absolutely obliterates trial mechs, and why?

Do we want new players to be fodder that quit after a few hours/days? Or do we want new players to be retained, and to learn and grow into good mech pilots?

Right now, the only thing that I think keeps people around is mech-fandom. I don't think this game will create NEW mech fans in its current state. It only seems to appeal to the relatively small number of folks who are already mech fans.

How do you fix that? (cont)..

All that being said, I think MWO has amazing potential, and now that I am able to look up resources for build discussion and ideas, and have a tiny amount of cash to purchase new gear, I am having genuine fun.

But man....new idiots won't know. New idiots are who become core players. How do these guys intend to ever retain those new idiots if the game is this unfriendly?

Edited by Balm, 27 March 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Based Valkyrie, nice thread.

This right here, not 3rd person camera, is how accessibility looks like. Please, PGI, consider taking steps such as those in the OP. People without strong feelings for the setting simply recoil from how hermetic the current system, and how punishing the new player experience are. The license and FD's art are a powerful enough lure for the fans, but we - MWO - need players, need gamers, and for that it has to work as a good game.

One that entices you to play from the start, hooks you in instead of beating you down, only promising rewards if you withstand the initial punishment without uninstalling.

[Sybreed]

General Taskeen, on 27 March 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

The thing I hate, hate about WoT is that it tries to be a 'simmy' Tank experience even though its unrealistic arcade nonsense. They throw you in a Panzer 38 (t) against Josef Stalin tanks, no real WW2 battle scenarios by year with the correct tanks facing each other, etc. You won't be counterattacking the Russian Operation Little Saturn at Stalingrad, or fighting in the Bocage of the Western Front against a huge Alliled armored column in a Panther like the Ace Ernst Barkmann did, no immersion. Just stupid. And I find it even more annoying that MWO copied their crap game modes.

Now this is a real Tank Simulator, and you get to do it in the awesome Tiger

dude, what is this game !?!?! I want

[General Taskeen]

Sybreed, on 27 March 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

dude, what is this game !?!?! I want

An way older game, that I don't think is sold anymore, except maybe in Europe. It was made by a Netherlands developer. Its called "WW2 Battle Tanks: T-34 vs. Tiger," and takes place during Operation Bagration 1944.

[Writer]

In its current form, the Trial Mechs are the single greatest hurdle to the new player experience. Tutorials are important, but if their first experience is unplayable what does it matter?

The Trial Mechs are unequivically terrible. So ask yourself: Why are Trial Mechs terrible? No, seriously, why make them terrible? It only scares players away from the game. TF2 and other quality F2P titles give free players full access to the core experience with the principle goal of convincing them to stick around and keep playing. Even Hawken gives new players solid default gear to use. A new player isn't going to stick around if they have to grind a ****** mech for 4 hours before they can start having fun in a Light or Medium. WIth a F2P title in today's market, getting them to bother installing and keeping it on their HD is half the battle

So why are Trial Mechs so terrible? Because of their awful weapon choices, armor values, and their heat. Their standard heat sinks are terrible. These 3 factors make for paper-thin mechs that get wrecked the moment they get into a fight. So stop making new players drop in ****** mechs. Let them drop in functional mechs that you could expect to run into on an average night. New Players should be dropping in solid "average" Mechs that can remain competitive with any other build out there. Make Trial Mechs the baseline standard for competitive mech designs. Every single rotation of trials should come with 4 competitive mechs representing their weight class, instead of 4 gimped stock mechs with single heat sinks and god-awful loadouts. There is no downside to giving new players access to 4 solid trial mechs.

As part of this, its time to stop forcing Trial mechs to use Single Heat Sinks, and give all Trials DHS for the time being. Until there is a reasonable difference between SHS and DHS, it's a pointless grindwall that impairs new users. Almost everyone (Except Garth) is using DHS, even ballistic builds like the Jagermech with no external heatsinks benefit from the upgrade to the internal engine heat sinks. Giving free players access to 4 fun mechs increases the number of machines that have MWO installed, and increases the number of potential users. The more people trying the game out means more long-term players who decide to start grinding for an Atlas, or their LRM-Boat Catapult.

With these changes in place, it's also time to re-examine the role and function of SHS in MWO and start progressing towards improvements that will make DHS a functional trade-off/ improvement within the game the same way Endo-Steel and Artemis are. Sometimes you don't want to take Endo or Artemis due to the slots/tonnage, I don't see why DHS and SHS can't play the same role. (and while you're at it, buff Fero-Fiberous so people actually bother to use it! With apparent changes to Heatsinks and Fero we'd actually start to see some noticeable differences in mech builds which would increase meta-game diversity!)

Edited by Rhenis, 27 March 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[Sybreed]

General Taskeen, on 27 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

An way older game, that I don't think is sold anymore, except maybe in Europe. It was made by a Netherlands developer. Its called "WW2 Battle Tanks: T-34 vs. Tiger," and takes place during Operation Bagration 1944.

aaw sucks, I love simulation games like these. In Silent Hunter, I manually target boats and enter the solution myself. Every boat sunk feels like an accomplishment.

[valkyrie]

Wow, came back from work and was surprised to see how well this thread had gone. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one thinking the way I do about the NPE. Here's hoping PGI is listening to us.

On a side note, I would've mentioned the Cadet Bonus in my initial analysis, but decided not to for the same reason I don't think third person is a viable fix for the issue at hand - people will still be left to fill the knowledge gap left by the lack of a complete tutorial. Ok, say you get a few million in a handful of matches - roughly half of the Cadet Bonus. Chances are you still won't know how to create an efficient 'Mech or what the strengths of the different playstyles are, so you may end up wasting it just experimenting.

When that Cadet Bonus suddenly starts dropping off (do you get told how many games left you have with it?), you're now stuck with little to no money, and instead of a Trial 'Mech deathtrap, you have a Custom 'Mech deathtrap (*cough*4MG Spider*cough*), and selling it to try something else puts you right back in a Trial 'Mech to continue grinding - now with far less income - so you can experiment with something else. Repeat ad infinitum until the newbie finally finds something that "clicks" for them, or - the more likely scenario - they get frustrated and quit.

It's the MechLab equivalent of the third person conundrum: just because you can buy a 'Mech doesn't mean you can plan and build a decent 'Mech, in the same way that knowing how to drive your stompy death robot is a far cry from knowing how to actually pilot said stompy death robot ("Legs are separate from torso, ok, got it. Why do all my guns fire at once and then I shut down?").

[Smk]

All F2P games are going to have problems with new players but WoT does it better than MWO. At least there your ****** little starting tank only plays against other ****** little starting tanks for a while and it only takes like 3 games to fully upgrade. By comparison the trial mechs are like getting paired against tanks 2-3 tiers above you right off the bat.

I'm not bashing or anything because WoT at release had some serious problems with the starting tanks as well but it's way better now. Every person I've tried to introduce to MWO has quit because of how awful the game is for new players.

[Team Leader]

Agree on all points OP. good post! Keep it up!

[mekabuser]

good post.
Not all trial mechs are bad, but many are. Presently the treb and stalker are both completely viable good builds. .
that being said.. I see nothing wrong with giving a mech to new players..
I also believe all new players should play their first 50 matches with just new players.. At least..

I also think they should tweek elo to protect the lower tiers so that above average players dont wind up being with them as much as can currently happen.

Yeah.. starting out in the middle of elo system now that i think about it , just doesnt work for new players..

[Noob Weapons]

+1

Love everything about this post and its ideas.

We need a tutorial for this sort of thing for sure. I also think it wouldn't hurt to let people take a mech that they do not own into the training grounds to test it out before they decide to buy it. That would help newer players understand what mech they are working towards.

I think that all trial mech should be player-made variants that actually work, rather than stock variants that just get newer players killed by more experienced players with double heat sinks, and viable weapon builds.

[Writer]

valkyrie, on 27 March 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Wow, came back from work and was surprised to see how well this thread had gone. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one thinking the way I do about the NPE. Here's hoping PGI is listening to us.

On a side note, I would've mentioned the Cadet Bonus in my initial analysis, but decided not to for the same reason I don't think third person is a viable fix for the issue at hand - people will still be left to fill the knowledge gap left by the lack of a complete tutorial. Ok, say you get a few million in a handful of matches - roughly half of the Cadet Bonus. Chances are you still won't know how to create an efficient 'Mech or what the strengths of the different playstyles are, so you may end up wasting it just experimenting.

When that Cadet Bonus suddenly starts dropping off (do you get told how many games left you have with it?), you're now stuck with little to no money, and instead of a Trial 'Mech deathtrap, you have a Custom 'Mech deathtrap (*cough*4MG Spider*cough*), and selling it to try something else puts you right back in a Trial 'Mech to continue grinding - now with far less income - so you can experiment with something else. Repeat ad infinitum until the newbie finally finds something that "clicks" for them, or - the more likely scenario - they get frustrated and quit.

It's the MechLab equivalent of the third person conundrum: just because you can buy a 'Mech doesn't mean you can plan and build a decent 'Mech, in the same way that knowing how to drive your stompy death robot is a far cry from knowing how to actually pilot said stompy death robot ("Legs are separate from torso, ok, got it. Why do all my guns fire at once and then I shut down?").

Get rid of ****** trials and replace them with solid competent mechs that you would actually see on a nightly basis. That solves half of our new player experience problems right from the start. Even if you get stuck in the ghetto grinding C-bills for a better mech, you're grinding on a trial that's actually FUN to pilot. High armor values, a focus on front armor instead of paper thin "equal" armor, DHS, and competent weapon groupings with an emphasis on 1-3 weapons with synergy instead of 3-4 groupings of "I don't know what I was thinking" weapons with zero synergy.

If your meta-game is getting dominated by a certain playstyle, adjust the trials to give new players a fighting chance.

[HugoStiglitz]

As to OPs points, if I remember correctly they do want to put in a tutorial, they just haven't gotten to it yet, but NGNG has created tutorial videos and there is also the training grounds in the mean time. It's not perfect but it's what we have right now.

PGI already wants to revise the trial mechs, hell they have us picking the trials for April so if they are good they might let us pick them again, maybe make it the way all trial mechs are selected.

LoL doesn't let people go into ranked matches immediately, it lets you choose between a ******** as **** AI that advances when it's about to die, or go against real people like MWO does. Remember MWO has no ranked matches yet.

In reality we just need to be more supportive of new players while PGI is still implementing all their features into the game. If you see someone struggling help them out, tell people about minimum ranges on weapons that have them, tell them about the NGNG tutorial videos (if you don't know where they are, they're in the media tab on this website or on their youtube channel [mechwarrioronline]). Once again I don't agree that this is enough, but it's going to have to do for now if we want CW or anything else like that.

[PropagandaWar]

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

I'd actually compare your experiences with the PzKpfw IV to say running a Dragon in MWO. Both are just not very good platforms for new players. Might I recommend going up the German or Russian Heavy line instead?

That's kinda offtopic though. I do agree with all your other points and cannot stress enough how much a simple tutorial would help with new player retention in MWO.

I played Warthunder for the first time yesterday and was amazed at their tutorials. There were 8 of them covering a wide variety of subjects (such as dive bombing, torpedo bombing, takeoff and landing, carrier takeoff and landing, bomber turret operation etc etc) and done brilliantly. You also got in-game currency for completing the tutorials, I thought it was an inspired idea.

Heck they explained rudder, ailerons, throttle, elevator controls so well that I was doing barrel rolls in no time flat.

Just a quick note I think WarThunder used Birds of Prey which had most of this in place. Fun game though.

[valkyrie]

PropagandaWar, on 27 March 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Just a quick note I think WarThunder used Birds of Prey which had most of this in place. Fun game though.

I haven't played War Thunder, but this is probably true. Gaijin is an outlier in that they've developed and shipped multiple complete titles in the same genre already (Wings of Prey, Apache Air Assault, Birds of Steel). They most certainly do know what they're doing when it comes to scripting single player tutorials, since single player was the meat and potatoes of their previous titles.

Which, I may add, were all very good. Apache in particular is a blast.

[ThunderHorse]

Well said. I applaud your in-depth reporting on the matter.

I've never played WoT and never intend to. Reading your summary of the game made perfect sense.

[Dredhawk]

World of tank is rather easy to grind up till tier 5 then it down hill from there......

Or should I say a up hill Grind LOL