69 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Their are many threads in General, Game Balance, and Suggestion subforums, regarding weapon convergence. Interestingly, someone mentioned something that kinda struck me:

NinetyProof, on 26 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Alpha Strike = Pin Point Damage = Win

This issue has nothing to do with "cheese builds" or "double heat sinks".

It has everything to do with killing a mech by creating a weakspot on a mech, then exploiting that weak spot. it's much easier to hit 1 spot on a mech, if you alpha ... but much harder if your chain firing.

Also, the issue also has to do with spreading incoming damage to multiple areas of your own armor. If you alpha, you can then swing your torso around to spread out incoming damage, versus having to keep your torso *steady* to maintain pinpoint accuracy on the weak spot.

Alpha strikes are the most efficient way to not only create/exploit weak spots on opponents as well as make your weak spot a moving targets.

This has nothing to do with double heat sinks ... it has everything to do with killing quickly, while trying not to be killed.

Alpha Strikes have built in heat penalties ... even if that were increased, it would not stop Alphas. It would have to be an extreme increase and for what reason?

The reality is that if you got rid of Alpha's and chain fire was the norm, you would end up with more core'ing going on cause more people would hold their torso's still, which makes them a easier target to find, strip, core, kill.

Typical "Liberal" mindset ... propose restrictions to stop a "perceived" problem and end up create worse issues. Just stop.

Disclaimer: When I say "chain firing" I also mean group firing in a chain fashion.

As you can tell from this post, his argument about why alpha striking is superior is it gives all the advantages without any of the drawbacks, except for adding heat all at one time.

This is my suggestion, why not balance Alpha Strikes and Chain Firing?

Alpha Strike -
Pros:
Allows for minute control of torso facing before/after firing.
Allows easier movement control and controlling when to fire while changing movement directions.

Cons:
Adds heat all at the same time.
Weapons do not all land in the same spot.

Chain Firing -
Pros:
Allows for pin-point targeting against your target.
Allows more control of heat when firing.

Cons:
Requires torso to face the target when continuing to fire.
Harder to control movement and keep pin-point damage going.

Ignoring on how you achieve the above, would it not be better to balance Alpha Strikes and Chain Firing instead of Alpha Striking always being just straight better in almost every situation? The only time Alpha Strikes are bad is if using one would shut you down.

So I figured I would bring this up.

Here is the same post in the Suggestion forums, please vote: Balancing Weapon Fire Styles

I am posting this here because the Suggestion/Game Balance forums gets little traffic where General gets lots of heavy traffic.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

How about we have 3 firing options and you use which ever suits you best at the time?

I chain fire on one mech I use all 6 weapon groups another and I alpha on 1 (and only alpha)

This argument is childish overall and the kiddies complaining about it should feel bad as they play bad and lack common sense and basic reasoning.

Point is it is already balanced and to say otherwise is ignorant to basic game play and style.

[zztophat]

Chain fire needs to be better, rate of fire in particular, to better use available firepower; Particularly in the case of auto cannons.

But that's it really.

Edited by zztophat, 27 March 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Dishevel]

All I would really want is the ability to set chain timing.
This would not affect the firing rate of the weapon itself just the rate between trigger pulls on the chain.
That way you could set the chain rate of 4xAC/5s on a group to one quarter of the fire rate of the weapon itself so as to give yourself a constant sustainable firing rate. Or you could choose 0.1 seconds and have all 4 go off in .4 seconds. with a wait before the first is ready to fire again.
Choices are good.

[Ph30nix]

ummm you forgot a con for chain firing

-Weapons do not all land in the same spot.

i dont know about you but i rarely fire from a stationary position even if all im doing is bobbling back and forth waiting for the need to go full throttle in either direction.

alphas are fine, chain firing has a place and always will, there are mech builds that actualy REQUIRE IT.

so annoying when people rant about things that kill them and want it changed when its a lack of understanding or skill on their part thats the problem.

[AnnoyingCat]

FIRE EVERYTHING!

[Syllogy]

You know that by posting this all over the forums that you are only diluting actual respondents, and not gaining any chance to be seen by the devs?

They pay people full-time to scour the forums all day, collect data, posts, ideas, and suggestions to put them into a format to be evaluated, and (with discretion) pass them onto the Devs.

So once Viterbi and miSs see all 12 of your posts about the same thing, they will just discount it as an idea already passed. The only thing you do is water-down the amount of responses to your suggestion.

[TheForce]

you're fighting a losing battle. PGI needs pinpoint accuracy to make money from the average gamer who doesn't understand/give a **** about the lore.

[CooCooKachoo]

Really? Balance alpha strikes??? You gotta be kidding me.

Why should I get penalized for using my weapons how I want. If I run a 5LL Stalker-5M and come across a Cataphract that is running an XL engine and see his LT is going red.....damn straight im gonna send an alpha or 2 on that LT. Why would I ever want to chain fire in that situation.

Another example.....I'm coming up to some enemies and launch an alpha to their face, they torso twist to min the damage....I have now forced the enemy to look away while I either find cover, or prepare for another attack when he turns back. Again when I have another viable shot why wouldn't I want to use full firepower to deter and kill my enemy. Only time I wouldn't Alpha is when I know it won't kill the enemy and will cause me to overheat. Otherwise if I have a clear shot you can be sure that I'll send whatever I can to be effective in destroying your mech.

This topic should go away, stop trying to penalize those who are good at figuring out an enemies weak spot and exploiting it to their full advantage. If your running an XL engine and get a lot of damage to a side torso......protect it, dont face that 5LL stalker or brawler Atlas or trip UAC5's. I have had plenty of kills by going after a critical weakness that gets exposed, it's not my fault that my 45 point alpha can tear up the last bit of your armor and wreck your internals, its your problem, so find a way to defend yourself.

[Zyllos]

CooCooKachoo, on 27 March 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Really? Balance alpha strikes??? You gotta be kidding me.

Why should I get penalized for using my weapons how I want. If I run a 5LL Stalker-5M and come across a Cataphract that is running an XL engine and see his LT is going red.....damn straight im gonna send an alpha or 2 on that LT. Why would I ever want to chain fire in that situation.

Another example.....I'm coming up to some enemies and launch an alpha to their face, they torso twist to min the damage....I have now forced the enemy to look away while I either find cover, or prepare for another attack when he turns back. Again when I have another viable shot why wouldn't I want to use full firepower to deter and kill my enemy. Only time I wouldn't Alpha is when I know it won't kill the enemy and will cause me to overheat. Otherwise if I have a clear shot you can be sure that I'll send whatever I can to be effective in destroying your mech.

This topic should go away, stop trying to penalize those who are good at figuring out an enemies weak spot and exploiting it to their full advantage. If your running an XL engine and get a lot of damage to a side torso......protect it, dont face that 5LL stalker or brawler Atlas or trip UAC5's. I have had plenty of kills by going after a critical weakness that gets exposed, it's not my fault that my 45 point alpha can tear up the last bit of your armor and wreck your internals, its your problem, so find a way to defend yourself.

Who says your going to get penalized?

By your statement, why should I get penalized by chain firing? Why am I getting penalized for shooting the weapons the way I want to? This seems like a poor argument.

Syllogy, on 27 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

You know that by posting this all over the forums that you are only diluting actual respondents, and not gaining any chance to be seen by the devs?

They pay people full-time to scour the forums all day, collect data, posts, ideas, and suggestions to put them into a format to be evaluated, and (with discretion) pass them onto the Devs.

So once Viterbi and miSs see all 12 of your posts about the same thing, they will just discount it as an idea already passed. The only thing you do is water-down the amount of responses to your suggestion.

If they "discount" the post, they will send me a message and close them.

Edited by Zyllos, 27 March 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Rippthrough]

Chain firing in itself is a penalty for being a moron who hasn't worked out that pinpoint damage is better than spreading it all over the mech.

The only time you should be chainfiring is when the enemy is 1-2 shots from death and your heat is bouncing off the redline.

[Royalewithcheese]

Chainfiring should be configurable to do anything a macro could do. But group fire has pretty much always been better than chainfire in Mechwarrior games and I'm not sure why that's a bad thing.

[MaddMaxx]

zztophat, on 27 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Chain fire needs to be better, rate of fire in particular, to better use available firepower; Particularly in the case of auto cannons.

But that's it really.

Chain fire rates are based on the individual Weapon cool down times. So, are you asking for AC's to fire faster? Is that it?

Rippthrough, on 27 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Chain firing in itself is a penalty for being a moron who hasn't worked out that pinpoint damage is better than spreading it all over the mech.

The only time you should be chainfiring is when the enemy is 1-2 shots from death and your heat is bouncing off the redline.

So, only when your enemy is near death, or your heat is red-lined, or both, that is when you officially become a Moron?

Ok! Got it.

[Belorion]

Chain Fire gives the advantage of continuous impulse with some weapons, and the heat dissipation will often allow for more shots when chain fired.

[TexAce]

There is a drawback to Alpha striking: If you miss, you have to wait for all your weapons to reload.

[DKTuesday]

[Commander Kobold]

TexAss, on 27 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

There is a drawback to Alpha striking: If you miss, you have to wait for all your weapons to reload.

that's not really a downside.. weapons don't exactly recycle slowly.

[Cato Phoenix]

Arguing this is like arguing that burst mode or full auto should be nerfed vs. single shot on automatic weapons in a battlefield game.

There is literally nothing to balance here. It's personal preference based on whether you want to fire your weapons in short repetition or full out blast them. It's like using the old throttle or new (painful for me) gas pedal. It doesn't give you any intrinsic advantage that isn't due to your own playstyle. If you can do more damage shooting alphas, shoot them. If you like the DPS of chain-fire, chain fire.

People are now beating pans wanting the GAME CONTROLS to be nerfed.

[Roughneck45]

Cato Phoenix, on 27 March 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Arguing this is like arguing that burst mode or full auto should be nerfed vs. single shot on automatic weapons in a battlefield game.

There is literally nothing to balance here. It's personal preference based on whether you want to fire your weapons in short repetition or full out blast them. It's like using the old throttle or new (painful for me) gas pedal. It doesn't give you any intrinsic advantage that isn't due to your own playstyle. If you can do more damage shooting alphas, shoot them. If you like the DPS of chain-fire, chain fire.

People are now beating pans wanting the GAME CONTROLS to be nerfed.

+1

Nothing to balance here.

There is no reason for alphas and chain firing to be equal. Chain fire just gives you tactical options when heat becomes a problem, or if you like to chain ballisitcs or missiles.

Edited by Roughneck45, 27 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Ransack]

Cato Phoenix, on 27 March 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Arguing this is like arguing that burst mode or full auto should be nerfed vs. single shot on automatic weapons in a battlefield game.

There is literally nothing to balance here. It's personal preference based on whether you want to fire your weapons in short repetition or full out blast them. It's like using the old throttle or new (painful for me) gas pedal. It doesn't give you any intrinsic advantage that isn't due to your own playstyle. If you can do more damage shooting alphas, shoot them. If you like the DPS of chain-fire, chain fire.

People are now beating pans wanting the GAME CONTROLS to be nerfed.

Agreed. Each has it's place. Sometimes I feel like doing burst, sometimes I don't.